quote:

Originally posted by BBMW:


A lot of people tend to shoot striker guns low and left. There may be grip issues that cause this, but it can be consistent enough that just dialing the adjustment into the sights makes sense.

For people who run optics on their guns, do you use the optics to accomplish this? Do you see where your group goes, and just move the dot so the group hits the bull's eye? Or if you have co-witnessed irons, do you just put the dot where the irons are, and try to work your grip/trigger technique to get the shots to the bull's eye?

quote:

Originally posted by YVK:

quote:

Originally posted by BBMW:


A lot of people tend to shoot striker guns low and left. There may be grip issues that cause this, but it can be consistent enough that just dialing the adjustment into the sights makes sense.

For people who run optics on their guns, do you use the optics to accomplish this? Do you see where your group goes, and just move the dot so the group hits the bull's eye? Or if you have co-witnessed irons, do you just put the dot where the irons are, and try to work your grip/trigger technique to get the shots to the bull's eye?

I was adjusting my sights when I couldn't shoot. Now my backup irons are fully centered on every striker gun I own.
I zero my irons independently of the dot and before the dot is mounted. I zero my dot independently of irons. I have four dot guns that have iron backup sights. On all four the dot ends up sitting over the right side of the front sight blade. I am OK with that.

quote:

Originally posted by sigfreund:
A couple of decades ago before my agency had anyone designated as the firearms instructor, one of the deputies approached me about a problem he was having with his issued P220. He knew I was a “gun guy” and thought maybe I could determine what was wrong with the gun.

We went to the range and at 7 yards he was shooting a pattern (no, not a “group”) a foot or so below the point of aim. I took the gun from him and set up a target at 15 yards. Despite not being as good a shot as I am now, I proceeded to punch a 2-inch group exactly where I was aiming.
We went from there.

Shortly thereafter the sheriff asked me to take over the firearms training, and one of the things I’ve demonstrated many times since is that, no, it’s not the gun that’s responsible for your hitting a foot low with a “group” the size of a pie plate. At 5 yards with iron sights I can usually put five shots into a single hole very close to the point of aim, and that usually has a profound effect on the student’s state of mind about the instruction he is about to receive.

quote:

Originally posted by BBMW:
I thought it might be more the sights than my shooting.

quote:

Originally posted by sigfreund:

quote:

Originally posted by BBMW:
I thought it might be more the sights than my shooting.

The sights can be at fault, especially when it’s a decently-tight group not very far from the point of aim. Based my experiences, though, the “Glock problem” or anything similar with other guns doesn’t produce small groups 2 inches low and left. What I’ve seen are 6 inch clusters a foot low and left, and that’s what I was thinking of. When I see something like that I’ll fire a group with the trainee’s gun to demonstrate it’s not a sight problem and then work on what requires fixing.

But even if it’s a tight group 2 inches low and left, I believe it’s a mistake to adjust the sights until they have been proved to be the cause. Shooting from a rest and/or having someone else shoot the gun are good first steps.

quote:

Originally posted by jjc:
2 people I know have screwed up their red dots by hitting something. It's just not worth it, for the price these things are now

quote:

Originally posted by jjc:
I think handgun optics are the future in sights but not the fragile, bulbous costly ones we now have. 2 people I know have screwed up their red dots by hitting something. It's just not worth it, for the price these things are now

quote:

Originally posted by Flash-LB:

quote:

Originally posted by jjc:
I think handgun optics are the future in sights but not the fragile, bulbous costly ones we now have. 2 people I know have screwed up their red dots by hitting something. It's just not worth it, for the price these things are now

Have you seen the Sig Romeo Zero on a Sig P365? I carry one and it's a long way from being fragile or bulbous.

quote:

Originally posted by BBMW:
Really it does seem pretty fragile and plasticy (plastic body and lens IIRC.) I'd trust the Holosun 4/507K models more with their aluminum bodies.

quote:

Originally posted by Flash-LB:

quote:

Originally posted by jjc:
I think handgun optics are the future in sights but not the fragile, bulbous costly ones we now have. 2 people I know have screwed up their red dots by hitting something. It's just not worth it, for the price these things are now

Have you seen the Sig Romeo Zero on a Sig P365? I carry one and it's a long way from being fragile or bulbous.

quote:

Originally posted by rmfnla:
I chose the P365 for its small size, not interested in adding stuff to it that will make it bigger.

Also don’t like electronics that can fail or batteries that can die at the wrong time on a defensive weapon.

Iron sights for me.

quote:

Originally posted by Jupiter:
You have a pretty knowledgeable group of folks here. Most of the iron sight crowd here already know shootouts don't always happen at very close distances. They have made a conscious decision to carry what they feel is the best balance of shootability, capacity, cost, comfort and convenience for the most likely scenarios they might face. Many like to keep it simple. Most people who carry a gun for self defense are busy just living their lives and will never have the time to really train hard and MAINTAIN those skills even if they do acquire them. This is why I believe most people will be better off learning the basics and keeping it simple.


I have a few questions for the OPTICS ARE A MUST folks.

01. Do you feel the average optics user with limited training will be able to consistently find a dot (as fast or faster) than iron sights if they had a poor grip, transition to the weak hand, shooting from an awkward position, etc.?

02. If you draw your pistol and the dot is not there for any reason, do you loose any time at all transitioning to iron sights? How much time does it take for your brain to process and react? I'm talking about cases where it's totally unexpected. I'm not talking about very close targets of course. It's always interesting to see how people react to situations that take them totally off guard. I've seen people fall apart over the years running stages like this.

03. Do your Iron Sights co-witness with the dot?


04. Do you keep the intensity setting the same or do you change it regularly depending on the time of day/night or weather conditions?

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:
Nope.

The low left hit for a right handed shooter is a pre-ignition push of the pistol downward to mitigate or control recoil.

Has nothing to do with sights. Plus people rarely can shoot a consistent preignition push for all speeds. It’s less with slow fire, more exaggerated as you speed up.

quote:

Originally posted by offgrid:

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:
Nope.

The low left hit for a right handed shooter is a pre-ignition push of the pistol downward to mitigate or control recoil.

Has nothing to do with sights. Plus people rarely can shoot a consistent preignition push for all speeds. It’s less with slow fire, more exaggerated as you speed up.

If I hit low left, high probablity that's exactly what I'm doing.

A drill that has helped me. Load a mag, rack a round in the chamber, holster the mag and gun. Draw and shoot, slide is obvousily not going to lock back, follow up with a fast dry fire. The dry fire will show me what I'm doing.

quote:

Originally posted by Flash-LB:

quote:

Originally posted by BBMW:
Really it does seem pretty fragile and plasticy (plastic body and lens IIRC.) I'd trust the Holosun 4/507K models more with their aluminum bodies.

quote:

Originally posted by Flash-LB:

quote:

Originally posted by jjc:
I think handgun optics are the future in sights but not the fragile, bulbous costly ones we now have. 2 people I know have screwed up their red dots by hitting something. It's just not worth it, for the price these things are now

Have you seen the Sig Romeo Zero on a Sig P365? I carry one and it's a long way from being fragile or bulbous.

Kind of reminds me of what a lot of people said about the Glock 17 when it first came out.