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Member |
I'm on the unpopular side of this one and find the P320 to have a design flaw. I sold my P320 years ago and have never looked back. I don't think you can look at all of these documented cases of guns discharging in holsters and not think something is up. Even if you are in the camp of its some type of trigger contact or is trigger engagement (which in some videos it is clearly not), then you'd have to wonder if the gun is designed with too light of a trigger.... It would be like carrying a p226 in single action or a 1911 with the safety disengaged. Who would do that? At least the competitors like the Glocks and M&PS (which I find to both have better triggers) have a safety mechanism on the trigger face to mitigate those types of discharges. That feature also would have prevented the whole drop issue too. I just find the p320 to be a poor design with a VERY tarnished track record. | |||
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| Member |
^^^It's possible that the trigger tab safety found on the competition actually wouldn't have helped the P320. Such a safety works by preventing inertial motion of the trigger bar, which prevents the trigger bar from depressing the striker block safety and actuating the sear (or in the case of a Glock, directly releasing the leg of the striker). A number of online videos (take them with a grain of salt though) have shown that the P320's striker leg can slip off of its resting spot on the sear anyway (a tolerance issue) and/or that the sear is not actually blocked from moving up and down. None of this should actually be a problem because in either case, the striker would then be caught by the striker block safety, but the same videos (again, grain of salt) have shown that the striker block safety on the P320 can bind and become stuck in the disengaged position. | |||
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Lost |
Been saying that for a while. | |||
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| Lost |
I'm very much leaning to the multiple-cause theory, not just a single failure mode. Here's what I think Sig should do:
Expensive? Sure. But people are shooting themselves. | |||
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| Junior Member |
Look, I was raised to respect the opinions of others whether I agree or not. So, are the published numbers of 320s sold correct? And 80 to 100 accidental Discharges have been reported. What portion of 1% is that anyway? What about numbers of glock leg that were reported? What about remington? All those problems, many many episodes. I am proud to say I own 5 sigs, 2 320s. This fluff has probably made me more aware of gun safety with all my firearms( tons of remingtons too). What is wrong with that? It doesn't affect my trust in my sigs or remingtons either, it's about respect for the device. Being diligent with firearm safety is always the correct thing, no matter the brand, model,history, anything! | |||
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| Member |
"Glock Leg" is/was a training issue. People transitioning from revolvers or older weapons systems that incorporated a manual safety were discharging the firearm while holstering. Same issue when disassembling the firearm, pulling the trigger on a loaded chamber and firing. All of the issues associated with Glock are not flaws in the design of the gun, but flaws in the person operating the gun. I'm not a Glock fanboy, but I'm also not going to pretend that Glocks are an unsafe design. I do believe that the P320 has a design flaw. My gut tells me there is an actual problem in the design. At a minimum, the P320 has a trigger that is probably not appropriate for a duty or EDC weapon. | |||
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| Left-Handed, NOT Left-Winged! |
From a design FMEA point of view, requiring a trigger pull to field strip a pistol is a big risk. It requires the user to follow a specific sequence of: remove mag, cycle slide, pull trigger, pull down takedown tabs, remove slide. One sequence mistake - swap the first two steps, and you get an N.D. But only an idiot who is clueless would make such a mistake right? Well no, sometimes competent people brain fart and make mistakes, but many people who are non-technical just memorize a procedure without understanding why. The number of people that think a semi-auto is unloaded by simply removing the magazine, and the associated warnings engraved on many handguns, tell us that it's not so simple. I view this design as an inherent safety risk in Glock pattern pistols, and the FMEA would tell us it is a design flaw because there is no way to control it except operator training, which means people WILL make mistakes. Sig and HK have idiot proof takedown systems that require the slide to be locked back, magazine removed, then the lever turned and slide removed, with no trigger pull. I have seen analyses about the firing pin block lever on the 320 getting stuck in the retracted position due to the lack of a return spring. All of mine have return springs so either this as a 1st gen design issue fixed by the recall, or a manufacturing defect with missing or broken springs. If the block lever is retracted and a sharp impact causes the striker to slip off the sear, then you have an A.D. | |||
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Prepared for the Worst, Providing the Best |
I know of two holes in the building of a different local agency that resulted from exactly that. And they only issued Glocks as backups. I still blame the user, not the gun, but you must be cognizant of and accept responsibility for the risk when you choose that design.
The safety lever spring was deleted sometime before I went through the P320 armorer's course the first time in early 2020, and it hasn't been a part of the design since. One of my early guns had it, but I've since removed it. I seem to recall reading a report on an ND with a 320 where that spring getting damaged and bound up interfered with proper operation of the lever, defeated the striker safety lock, and contributed to an ND. I wish I still had a copy of that because it was an interesting case. | |||
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Down the Rabbit Hole |
IMO, the P320s future is toast. A large and growing number of people think there is a problem with the pistol whether it is or not. Too many other good options out there for departments to take the risk. Sig needs to go back to the drawing board and design something from the ground up if they want to stay in the LE market with a striker fired pistol. Diligentia, Vis, Celeritas "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." -- George Orwell | |||
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| Left-Handed, NOT Left-Winged! |
That's odd because all of the P320's I have still have the spring on the firing pin block lever. Even the newest - a P320 SXG I bought in 2024. Without it only gravity will ensure the lever blocks the striker. | |||
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| Prepared for the Worst, Providing the Best |
Are you referring to the striker safety lock (little piece that's actually part of the striker assembly in the slide) or the captive safety lever that's contained in the FCU that acts against the striker safety block to move it up and out of the way when the trigger is pulled? The striker safety lock has a spring. The safety lever in the FCU initially did as well, but that was done away with several years ago. | |||
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| Left-Handed, NOT Left-Winged! |
OK I don't think mine have a spring on the lifter lever in the FCU, but it seems to be linked to the trigger in a way that it can't move freely other than a bit of play. | |||
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| Member |
^^^This is a perfect example of SIG employing a design that is needlessly unconventional in a way that causes problems. The original design of the P320 didn’t even have an out-of-battery disconnector (an important safety feature present on nearly every semi-auto pistol for decades) because of a weird trigger reset mechanism. | |||
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| Prepared for the Worst, Providing the Best |
Yeah, the vertical "feet" of the safety lever and sear are sort of nested around the horizontal "leg" of the trigger bar, which is held in place by the trigger bar spring. When the trigger bar moves it actuates the safety lever and the sear. | |||
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| Member |
Just took my 320 X carry to the basement, unloaded it and smacked it in every direction with a rubber mallet. No unintended firing, admittedly no ammunition in it while testing. Scientific? No, but it’s never fired when I didn’t want it to. My drill instructor told me a long time ago to keep my damn booger hook off the boom switch and it won’t fire. And he was right! I still trust mine, you’re entitled to your own opinion. | |||
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| It's pronounced just the way it's spelled |
I have a Legion X5 that I put the GrayGuns competition trigger in, with the lightest springs that came in the package. I tried the bit of inserting a pick in and tripping the sear and the safeties worked. On a filthy gun (I did clean it afterward). I have an XTEN that was brand new with less than 100 rounds through it, clean as a whistle, same result. These discharges don’t seem to be happening with competitor’s P320s. We modify the guns, the holsters, handload ammo, draw, holster, load and shoot the living crap out of these guns. Logically speaking, competitors should be seeing these discharges, not police. I’m an engineer. If you can’t come up with a failure mode that is testable and reproducible, you might as well just go with “Black voodoo magic!” | |||
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| Member |
I am tore about the P320. I have played w/them and have shot them a little. I like them. But a little apprehensive about getting one but, I am looking. With competition use and some high speed competitors using them you think you would hear about ND’s in that arena but, I haven’t. My daughter was given a used M18 for training and no one had any issues. She was issued a brand new M18 when she reported to her Air National Guard unit and loves it. She carries it all the time as Security Forces. And the Air Force carries w/a round chambered. | |||
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| Member |
It had to have been 2018 or so, but I had one and did something similar. It was before there was a reported problem with just going off in holsters, only the drop safety issue. I dropped the loaded p320 on an empty chamber. The gun was "cocked" and would have fired had there been a round in the chamber. Dropped it. Picked it up. Dead trigger. Something like 3 out of 10 times. I could have sent the gun in for a voluntary safety upgrade or whatever SIG called it, but decided that the P320 was a flawed design, and that it didn't do anything my G19 or M&P 2.0 compacts didn't do better and for less money. Sold it hand haven't dreamed of picking up a P320 since then. | |||
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Member |
To me this might actually support a tolerance stacking, and potential poor parts quality issue. Competitors do modify their guns, and they do so with high quality parts, usually of tool steel, made with very precise machining and high grade quality control. Also because the parts are generally made in much lower quantities, it’s much easier to spot any part or material defects. “It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.” | |||
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| Member |
See i believe just the opposite. I think this is a training issue. | |||
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