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Prepared for the Worst, Providing the Best |
So I decided to test this. I put a P320 in a vice and chambered a primed case. I used a pick under the rear slide plate to depress the sear and drop the striker. I did this five times, and 5/5 the striker safety arrested the striker before it touched the primer. There's not even a mark. Just figured I'd share in case anyone else was curious. | |||
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| Prepared for the Worst, Providing the Best |
Yeah, that's not good. I question the wisdom of training that involves rushing to re-holster a loaded handgun like that. I have had to do it once or twice in the real world (de-escalating from lethal to less-lethal), but those situations were kind of unique. Coincidentally, it was with a P320, and no I didn't shoot myself. In the video his finger is clearly off the trigger. I can't tell for sure but it looks like the retention lever on the holster moves as he holsters the gun...not sure if he smacked it with his finger or if that's just from the locking mechanism of the holster receiving the gun. There's something weird about the way that gun is sitting in the holster once he moves his hand away...there's a lot of trigger guard exposed like it's either not all the way seated in the holster, or the holster isn't designed for that particular gun. The way he jammed it in there, if there was a piece of brass inside the holster or the holster's locking mechanism contacted the trigger due to being designed for a different gun, he supplied more than enough force to set it off. It would definitely be interesting to hear more background on this one. | |||
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Tinker Sailor Soldier Pie |
The trigger could've certainly caught on a piece of the holster. I really can't tell very well from the video. I've never shot a P320. I can say though that after firing a 100 plus rounds through my XD45--when the pistol is nice and toasty--its trigger gets very light. It almost pulls like a single action. Not exactly but almost. ~Alan Acta Non Verba NRA Life Member (Patron) God, Family, Guns, Country Men will fight and die to protect women... because women protect everything else. ~Andrew Klavan | |||
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| Peace through superior firepower  |
Is that a Serpa? | |||
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Oriental Redneck |
Yeah, isn't Serpa widely acknowledged to be worse than crap in the shooting community? Q | |||
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Member |
A friend who was a product manager for a Sig competitor told me he thinks it's pressure on the grip frame that's flexing the TCU frame as a potential cause outside of the known hit to the slide. He said that as his company spent a LOT of time ensuring rigidty of the plastic frame of their MHS submission. | |||
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| Prepared for the Worst, Providing the Best |
I'm not sure. It's definitely a serpa-style retention system, but there are plenty of knockoffs out there. I don't know as I've ever seen a Serpa with a flat top like that, but I know there have been numerous variants and I'm not familiar with all of them. IIRC Sig actually shipped some guns with a holster stamped "Made in Israel" for a while that had that style of locking mechanism. I think maybe it was made by IWI industries. I don't remember how long ago that was or what model handgun shipped with them, though. Edit: Here's the one I was thinking of. IMI Defense. Looks like this one is for an sp2022 but they make them for other models, too. https://www.amazon.com/IMI-Def...sp2009/dp/B007PAG3UY | |||
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fugitive from reality |
It does look like the holster in that video is the same type as the one in the Amazon link. One thing I noticed is the retention toggle never fully reset into the holster before the discharge occured. There is a tab on the inside of the toggle that gets lifted by the front of the trigger guard as the gun is inserted into the holster. The gun is supposed to bottom out before the tab can contact the trigger, and the toggle lever should be flush with the surface of the holster when the pistol is correctly secured. It looks like the gun wasn't square to the holster, and the tab on the toggle was able to ride up and across the trigger guard until it was able to move the trigger far enough to discharge the pistol. _____________________________ 'I'm pretty fly for a white guy'. | |||
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Member |
I noted a few things in that video. 1 - The carabiner clip just inboard of where the trigger guard of the holster is. (What is attached to it, if anything?) We would have had the shooter remove it in any of our classes. 2 - The hard "push" to get the gun into the holster. (If you feel unexpected resistance, stop.) 3 - The gun never seemed to make it all the way into the holster. Note the trigger guard is fully exposed after the gun goes off. Steve Small Business Website Design & Maintenance - https://spidercreations.net | OpSpec Training - https://opspectraining.com | Grayguns - https://grayguns.com Evil exists. You can not negotiate with, bribe or placate evil. You're not going to be able to have it sit down with Dr. Phil for an anger management session either. | |||
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Frangas non Flectes |
I was given one of these among a few others with one of those "buy my gun that comes with all these holsters I decided I don't like" kinda deals and recognized it in the video before I clicked your link. Mine says "iTAC Defense, Made in Israel." So yeah, same thing. I have the Glock version. Frankly, watching that video, I can't see how it would happen if there was a casing hung up in there. If one landed in the little shelf the trigger guard fits into, it would have stopped the gun from holstering as deep as it did. I can provide pictures of the inside of mine later if anyone's interested enough. Yes, I used it a couple of times. No, I don't like it. The button is up where the slide would be, so it's not exactly the same as a Serpa, but it's a Serpa all the same. I decided I didn't want to train in any retention defeating motions that weren't thumb drive, so I didn't mess with it but a few times. ______________________________________________ Endeavoring to master the subtle art of the grapefruit spoon. | |||
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| Member |
I'd like to see some real-world tests performed with the P320 when the pistol is gunked up with tacky powder solvent, gun cleaner, etc. in critical areas. Is there a scenario whereby proper operation of the internal safety mechanisms can be defeated by a dirty/gunked up sear mechanism and/or firing pin/firing pin channel that is contaminated with the remnants of sticky solvent and powder fouling etc.? A long time ago I experienced an issue with a different pistol (not a Sig) where some powder solvent evidently made its way into the firing pin channel during cleaning. The next time I took the pistol to the range several weeks later, the remnants of the sticky solvent kept the firing pin from operating freely, causing misfires and other problems. Do any of the P320 investigation reports contain information regarding the cleanliness of the pistols in the firing pin channel or around the sear mechanism? --------------------------------------------------------------------- Then again, I'm a complete stranger. What the hell does it matter what I think? (TM) | |||
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Domari Nolo |
Some additional analysis: | |||
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Member |
I think it would be interesting to repeat this test with the sear springs twisted as appears to be a well documented, even if not a common occurrence. I truly believe that a number of issues have to be present at the same time for one of these unexpected discharges to occur, whether that’s due to wear coupled with tolerance stacking, or some other mechanism. I think further testing with multiple foreseeable issues occurring at the same time will be telling. “It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.” | |||
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| Prepared for the Worst, Providing the Best |
Well that is interesting. Based on his troubleshooting the problem is not either of the striker assemblies. It could be the striker channel in the X5 slide is out of spec, or it could be a problem in the FCU. I'd be interested to see what happens if he swaps complete slides between guns, and I'd like a closer look at the FCUs, particularly the safety levers. I'm also not 100% sold on his testing methodology. Removing the barrel and RSA eliminates lockup and doesn't ensure proper slide orientation to the frame. I would think that the cocking action of the slide fully-cycling would manually retract the striker far enough for the striker safety to reset, even if it's not rebounding on its own. IMO it would be better to leave the gun fully-assembled and test with a primed case.
I have no doubt that crossing the sear springs would reduce tension on the sear and make it easier to depress. That wouldn't have any impact on the function of the striker safety, though, so the results would be the same. I agree that for the guns to fail as theorized, it would take a combination of problems to result in a discharge. The sear springs and proper striker rebound/safety reset will definitely be items on my inspection list every time I have a P320 apart. | |||
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Member |
I have just in the last year purchased a couple P320's. When they made the AXG models I jumped in because it had a metal grip module. I knew about the drop safety issue but figured they had fixed that and wasn't overly worried about it anyway because I have plenty of series 70 1911's without a fire pin block that can fire if dropped at the right angle. I admit after watching this video it's worrisome that shitty MIM parts could be causing this. They showed how sear and striker engagement can be and are compromised with bad parts. Metal build up and rounding of engagement surfaces. That's what scares me. It talks about the tolerances in the parts between the FCU and the slide being great enough that over a day riding in a holster the sear eventually slips and allows the striker to go forward setting off the gun. There is a secondary lever (striker safety) that supposed to stop it and they describe how it doesn't in all cases. Sig needs to fix it. I like the 320 but I don't think I'd ever feel great about carrying it in a holster on my side. So mine are range, car and nightstand guns and I don't keep one chambered. Μολὼν λαβέ | |||
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| Member |
Yes, people need to watch the 2nd half of the video. That's where all the actual information is. Μολὼν λαβέ | |||
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