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The Sig P320 and discharges. Login/Join 
Prepared for the Worst, Providing the Best
Picture of 92fstech
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by kkina:
quote:
I don't know what the intended function of that rear sear leg is in the design

According to Sig, the rear leg (added as part of the drop-safety upgrade) is supposed to add additional pressure from the trigger bar and help prevent the safety lever from popping up on its own.

P320 Upgrade Guide


That may be what the marketing dude said in that video, but in my gun it doesn't appear that that leg ever contacts the trigger bar. When the trigger is pulled the bar moves forward against the back of the front sear leg, depressing the sear. When the trigger is released, the sear moves back up under its own spring pressure, and the trigger bar moves to the rear and the back of it bottoms out against the sear housing before it ever comes into contact with that rear leg. I checked this on three different guns, just to make sure one wasn't special.

From what I can see, in normal operation, the trigger bar never touches the rear sear leg. The safety lever has front and rear legs of its own that nest around the trigger bar, and it does not interact directly with either sear leg.
 
Posts: 10419 | Location: In the Cornfields | Registered: May 25, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by 92fstech:

The issue he seems to have found is that in a properly functioning gun, even if the sear is manually depressed, the safety lever should not move far enough to defeat the striker safety block. Apparently he has found at least one case where it does. And that shouldn't happen.

Yes he has to manually depress the sear to demonstrate the problem...by doing that he's simulating a hard impact, debris, broken springs, or some other force applied to the gun to cause the striker to disengage. Obviously nobody in any of these incidents held the gun still while somebody reached in there and poked the striker down.


The issue is that the striker interfaces directly with the trigger bar and the safety lever. Moving any one of those parts causes some movement of the others, but they are supposed to be timed so that if that movement is somehow initiated by the sear instead of the trigger, the striker will drop before the safety lever moves enough to disengage the striker safety block. He has apparently found that this is not always the case.

I have tried his test on several P320s, and none of them exhibit the behavior he is demonstrating. So clearly not all guns are affected. He also has yet to determine exactly why some guns do this and others don't, but I think that he's right about the rear leg of the sear causing the issue in the affected guns.

I don't know what the intended function of that rear sear leg is in the design, and neither does he. He took a Dremel to it as a troubleshooting step, and I can appreciate what he's trying to do, but I'm not going to do that to a gun that's going to get used in the real world, and he doesn't recommend that anyone should, either.

I'd say at this point he has come up with a compelling theory about a design issue that affects some guns and could theoretically cause a UD. He's also demonstrated that issue. I'd like to hear Sig respond with what function that rear striker leg is supposed to perform, and why the safety lever timing appears to be off in some guns but not others.


In the "Sharp Pointy Thing" video (he says this 2 or 3 times) he has the pistol partially disassembled with the takedown lever removed and the slide slipping back and forth.
For that reason, I don't think his experiment is valid.
Seems like the TDL interfaces with the safety lever and the TDL needs to be locked into the 3:00 position before any valid testing can take place.
Why he would have taken out the TDL, I have no idea.

Another Guntoober uses an Xacto blade to depress the sear in a fully assembled P320.
The striker does not drop.
So either the sear safety notch or the striker block worked as designed.

If the striker can drop on a fully assembled, post upgrade P320, in good maintained condition, then SIG needs to look at it and determine the cause.
In the meantime I don't think a P320 can fire on its own accord and I believe a post upgrade and properly maintained P320 is drop-safe.
 
Posts: 453 | Registered: November 03, 2019Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Prepared for the Worst, Providing the Best
Picture of 92fstech
posted Hide Post
quote:
In the "Sharp Pointy Thing" video (he says this 2 or 3 times) he has the pistol partially disassembled with the takedown lever removed and the slide slipping back and forth.
For that reason, I don't think his experiment is valid.
Seems like the TDL interfaces with the safety lever and the TDL needs to be locked into the 3:00 position before any valid testing can take place.
Why he would have taken out the TDL, I have no idea.


That same condition can be achieved with the takedown lever out by popping the slide catch up and allowing the takedown safety lever to move back into the "assembled" position.

I do question his testing methodology, though, in that he puts a slide on the gun with no barrel or RSA in it, and just kind of holds it in place, which clearly doesn't keep it in the same position that it would be if it was fully assembled and locked into battery. I realize that having a barrel in the gun prevents one from seeing the protrusion of the striker tip, but IMO a better test would be to assemble the gun and place a primed case (no bullet or powder) in the chamber to see if the striker is moving forward of the breech. As such, I'm not fully convinced that his results are valid, either.

I do think he presents an interesting theory about that rear sear leg, though, and would like to see a detailed demonstration of what it is supposed to do.
 
Posts: 10419 | Location: In the Cornfields | Registered: May 25, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Just because something is legal to do doesn't mean it is the smart thing to do.
posted Hide Post
I have to ask a question. Are all, or most, of these NDs occurring when holstering the pistol or are the claims of of NDs well after the physical motion of holstering is completed? Are there any NDs with the gun just laying around on a table or in a safe?
I saw the video showing the guy holstering with his trigger finger appearing to enter the holster and I wouldn't be surprised that could cause an ND.


Integrity is doing the right thing, even when nobody is looking.
 
Posts: 4419 | Location: Metamora MI | Registered: October 31, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Giftedly Outspoken
Picture of sigarms229
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quote:
Are all, or most, of these NDs occurring when holstering the pistol or are the claims of of NDs well after the physical motion of holstering is completed?


From what I've seen its when holstering, or an already holstered pistol. I haven't seen or heard of any issues where a pistol was sitting on a table, in a safe or when dropping the slide on a full magazine (aka slamfire). Because of this, I've always questioned the holster's part in these discharges.



Sometimes, you gotta roll the hard six
 
Posts: 4672 | Location: SouthCentral PA | Registered: December 05, 1999Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Raptorman
Picture of Mars_Attacks
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I've tried everything I can think of to set off both our 320 and M18 pistols. The are both bone stock and no matter how much I whack them with a plastic mallet, they won't go off.

This MUST be from modifications altering the way they work.


____________________________

Eeewwww, don't touch it!
Here, poke at it with this stick.
 
Posts: 34905 | Location: North, GA | Registered: October 09, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by gjgalligan:
I have to ask a question. Are all, or most, of these NDs occurring when holstering the pistol or are the claims of of NDs well after the physical motion of holstering is completed? Are there any NDs with the gun just laying around on a table or in a safe?
I saw the video showing the guy holstering with his trigger finger appearing to enter the holster and I wouldn't be surprised that could cause an ND.


Here’s a compilation.

https://m.youtube.com/shorts/Xs3vIWkkm2A
 
Posts: 922 | Location: High desert. Nevada | Registered: April 15, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Savor the limelight
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mars_Attacks:
I've tried everything I can think of to set off both our 320 and M18 pistols. The are both bone stock and no matter how much I whack them with a plastic mallet, they won't go off.

This MUST be from modifications altering the way they work.

Did you try poking it with a stick?
 
Posts: 12826 | Location: SWFL | Registered: October 10, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Cous2492:
quote:
Originally posted by RogueJSK:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Cous2492:
Then someone demonstrates that there is, in fact a problem, as if anybody who has even a shred of objectivity couldn't see that years ago


Objectivity, by its very nature, requires facts, evidence, and proof before making a decision. Not speculation. Or a "feeling". Or an assumption. Or especially majority opinion.

Proof isn't a grainy video of an incident with an unknown cause.

Facts aren't "because somebody on the internet said so".

Evidence requires replicating the problem in a systematic manner through the use of the scientific method, which had been attempted but was elusive.


Boy, you must really be head-over-heels for the P320 to ignore all of the reported problems plus videos showing what the problem is. Enjoy your SIG, I'll

Sorry. Had a snarky remark but, got rid of it. Let’s continue w/ good and productive discussion.
 
Posts: 4261 | Registered: January 17, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by 357fuzz:
quote:
Originally posted by Cous2492:
quote:
Originally posted by RogueJSK:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Cous2492:
Then someone demonstrates that there is, in fact a problem, as if anybody who has even a shred of objectivity couldn't see that years ago


Objectivity, by its very nature, requires facts, evidence, and proof before making a decision. Not speculation. Or a "feeling". Or an assumption. Or especially majority opinion.

Proof isn't a grainy video of an incident with an unknown cause.

Facts aren't "because somebody on the internet said so".

Evidence requires replicating the problem in a systematic manner through the use of the scientific method, which had been attempted but was elusive.


Boy, you must really be head-over-heels for the P320 to ignore all of the reported problems plus videos showing what the problem is. Enjoy your SIG, I'll

Sorry. Had a snarky remark but, got rid of it. Let’s continue w/ good and productive discussion.

"Reported problems" have shown to be problematic.
There are jobs in jeopardy with some of these ND's. People have been disciplined or terminated for being less than truthful about their ND's.
Often said videos are grainy and inconclusive.
To date no one has been able to replicate one of these uncommanded discharges with a post upgrade P320 pistol.
When someone does, then SIG will need to address it.
Don't be victimized by all the anti-P320 noise.
If you don't like P320, then get something else.
 
Posts: 453 | Registered: November 03, 2019Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Prepared for the Worst, Providing the Best
Picture of 92fstech
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by trapper189:

Did you try poking it with a stick?


Thanks, that made me laugh Big Grin!
 
Posts: 10419 | Location: In the Cornfields | Registered: May 25, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Peace through
superior firepower
Picture of parabellum
posted Hide Post
 
Posts: 111723 | Registered: January 20, 2000Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of Blackwater
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Wow, that incident in the store with all weapons holstered is something else. Just being in a little wrestle with a suspect validates what’s other officers have unfortunately said they’ve experienced with just getting out of vehicles.

Well, I should’ve watched the rest, that was a gaping hole in the holster to gun around the trigger guard. Yikes.


Joe
Back in Tx.
 
Posts: 2575 | Location: Texas | Registered: October 28, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Savor the limelight
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by 92fstech:
quote:
Originally posted by trapper189:

Did you try poking it with a stick?


Thanks, that made me laugh Big Grin!

If you haven’t seen his signature line, then you might get another laugh out of it.

I’m honestly fascinated by the discussion. I’ve just purchased two new striker fired handguns and this discussion has me really looking at the inner workings of each.
 
Posts: 12826 | Location: SWFL | Registered: October 10, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of Cous2492
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quote:
Originally posted by trapper189:

I’m honestly fascinated by the discussion. I’ve just purchased two new striker fired handguns and this discussion has me really looking at the inner workings of each.



When you look at how simple the Glock design is and how safe it is, you appreciate the design even more. The little shelf Gaston put below the ejector that the trigger bar sits on is so simple, yet so genius.
 
Posts: 633 | Location: Ohio | Registered: April 13, 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Prepared for the Worst, Providing the Best
Picture of 92fstech
posted Hide Post
quote:
If you haven’t seen his signature line, then you might get another laugh out of it.


I did, and that's why I laughed Smile.
 
Posts: 10419 | Location: In the Cornfields | Registered: May 25, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I want to believe that most of this is user error or faulty accessories but the governor here just signed a bill (NH House Bill 551) that shields manufacturers from certain liability lawsuits, calling out guns not having magazine disconnects, manual safeties, loaded chamber indicators and bladed triggers. Sig is obviously a huge company up here with a lot of clout. I don’t want to get all conspiratorial but man that sounds like it was worded to protect Sig from litigation.
 
Posts: 2275 | Location: New Hampshire | Registered: February 25, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Prepared for the Worst, Providing the Best
Picture of 92fstech
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by MikeNH:
I want to believe that most of this is user error or faulty accessories but the governor here just signed a bill (NH House Bill 551) that shields manufacturers from certain liability lawsuits, calling out guns not having magazine disconnects, manual safeties, loaded chamber indicators and bladed triggers. Sig is obviously a huge company up here with a lot of clout. I don’t want to get all conspiratorial but man that sounds like it was worded to protect Sig from litigation.


It may have come about through dirty lobyists, but I'm totally ok with that law.

1. I don't want the government forcing those things on us, whether it be through legal mandate or threat of civil penalty. In a free country people should have the ability to decide for themselves how much risk they are willing to assume by using a particular product, and individually bear responsibility for the outcome.

2. The threat of lawsuits is probably one of the biggest impediments to a company admitting fault and implementing a fix. When stuff like this happens would we rather see a bunch of CYA and drawn-out litigation that just makes a bunch of lawyers rich, or a fix that makes everybody safer?
 
Posts: 10419 | Location: In the Cornfields | Registered: May 25, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Help! Help!
I'm being repressed!

Picture of Skull Leader
posted Hide Post
I carry the P320. I've been told my agency will be phasing them out soon probably in favor of a Glock 9mm of some variant.
 
Posts: 11240 | Location: The Magnolia State | Registered: November 20, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by YooperSigs:
The man is a respected trainer and his take on the 320 is worthy of consideration.
However, it does not erase my concerns:
The use of MIM parts in critical FCU components.
A tabbed trigger should have been part of the design from the git.

'
The "MIM Cry" is nonsense.
It's about holding tolerance and proper tempering.
Most all of the major manufacturers use MIM parts.

The tabbed trigger is a legit argument.
Most striker fired pistols utilize some form of trigger safety.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: DirectDrive,
 
Posts: 453 | Registered: November 03, 2019Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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