quote:

Originally posted by Blackwater:

quote:

Originally posted by DirectDrive:

quote:

Originally posted by Blackwater:
^ Well said.

For me the biggest tell that there is a mechanical flaw is the US Marine, who was carrying for hours with the M18 and safety on.

We know the thumb safety only blocks the trigger and not the sear. Another head scratching moment for Sig’s design.

I disagree, we're all just guessing from afar and concocting unlikely real-world scenarios.
The head scratcher is why are there no forensic examination results of the pistol and holster made public ?

Ok.
The military is not going to air their laundry to the world.
When some LEO or civilian bleeds out from a UD then you’ll probably get your forensic wish.

That's a little dramatic.

quote:

The closet thing to a comprehensive analysis, is likely in one of the law suits that have been sealed because Sig settled. That is the real world.

We shall see. There's been a few examinations revealed that showed nothing wrong with the pistol involved.

quote:

Originally posted by Jupiter:
I have a question about sear perching as discussed by Grayguns. Are the .45/10mm takedown levers easily distinguishable from the 9mm/.40 levers at a glance? Obviously, they must be pretty damn close for them to even work between calibers. <<snip>>

I've watched so many videos on this subject the past few days in response to this thread, as well as read quite a few printed articles, so I cannot remember where I saw/read it, but... at least one source that I looked at stated there were supposedly one or more batches of takedown safety levers from their supplier that were mislabeled, and that is how some 45/10mm levers got into 9/40/357 FCUs. I have no proof, but I certainly see this being a possibility since this MIM part is reportedly made in someplace like India.

Whether that is true or not, my purchase of an M17 or M18 has been put on hold for the foreseeable future until this issue is resolved. I have definitely lost any confidence in the platform and I don't even own one yet! I do have a P365 w/ manual safety that I've been carrying for about 3 years now, and to date I still don't feel 100% comfortable with it either. I think it's time to just stick with what I trust... a DA/SA hammer-fired gun!

A pistol is a mechanical system.

If there is a problem, it should be reproducible in the affected unit.

Unless the affected unit has a unique defect, the problem should be reproducible between other units of the same model.

I'm waiting for those videos.

I’m reminded of the “sudden unintended acceleration” (I believe that was the phrase) of the Audi 5000 automobile in the 1980s. It was all over TV, newspapers and the car magazines. After three years of study, the NHTSA determined it was drivers stepping on the accelerator instead of the brake pedal, despite everyone who did it claiming they had their foot on the brake. By then it was too late, Audi sales had plummeted in the US, you couldn’t give away what had been the hottest sports sedan on the road. Sound familiar?

I’m not saying all of these uncommanded discharges are user error, but people making mistakes is at least an order of magnitude more likely than a single point mechanical failure, and three orders of magnitude higher than two independent mechanical failures, and five orders of magnitude higher than three independent mechanical failures.

I just stumbled upon the following YT video that I found very interesting. I'm going to check out prices on M17s and M18s at my LGS in the next day or three to see if they really have fallen significantly due to this ongoing "issue". If they have, I might just have to buy one to keep as a range toy; the price will make all the difference though!

I have set it to start at the section which explains the "problem" and the VERY simple "solution". Feel free to watch the entire video if you wish, but the most interesting part is where the link is supposed to start!

YouTube video here...

Here's another one specific to the same modification to the sear as discussed in the above video...

Second YouTube video...

One final comment: Some people are of the opinion that this modification removes the update that Sig added to make the pistol completely drop safe. I don't know as I don't have one to mess with, so keep that in mind if you make your own mods!

^ I watched that vid with great interest a few days ago and left a comment on it.

I think it's an interesting experiment, removing the leg, with an interesting rationale proposed for doing so, but personally I would leave it at that.

My own comment on that YouTube vid said:-

Do not perform this modification.

This modification obviously increases the risk of uncommanded discharge (e.g. in drop-test scenarios) and the alleged "design flaw" is not a mechanic that has been demonstrated to exist during normal/correct operation of the firearm.

If one doesn't know the intended purpose(s) of the metal leg, one is probably not ideally placed to make a decision on removing it.

I expect the lawyers would have a field day if somebody had a problem with a firearm modified by cutting off that piece of metal. It could be creating a very real problem by trying to solve an artificial one. "I know an old woman who swallowed a fly..."

The observation about prices is interesting, I would not be surprised if these ongoing rumours have impacted the market. It would be ironic if any reduction in retail prices ended up putting more P320s in circulation! I have the P320 Nitron Compact and would not hesitate to get a more expensive P320 model if the price is right. I am often in gun shops in Europe where the typical price of a P320 has not changed, if anything the price has gone up and demand exceeds supply. (I'm reliably informed by an insider that this is partly due to SIG prioritising non-civilian orders within the EU.) In Spain and Portugal there's a 6-month wait to get some P320 models at gun shops where their previous stock has already sold out.

^^^ Agreed.

It's an interesting troubleshooting experiment, but that's all it is. Don't go cutting up critical fire control components on a pistol that you actually use, especially without a thorough understanding of the function of those parts. In this case you'd be circumventing an engineered solution to a known problem in an attempt to address a problem that might not even exist.

For me, apart from any other considerations, it ultimately boils down to this:

Has the specific P320 model been through full QA (including current drop tests!) with this mod? The answer is: no!

Nobody knows whether the gun is less safe or more safe after this "mod" and there is an increased risk in untested configuration. (Racking the gun 3 times and firing 1 box of ammo is not the full suite of safety tests, it's not real QA.)

And nobody knows whether this "mod" fixes any actual problem.

quote:

Originally posted by bronicabill: will make all the difference though!

YouTube video here...

Here's another one specific to the same modification to the sear as discussed in the above video...

Second YouTube video...

The first video was posted on page 6 of this thread. I swear the second video was also posted, but I can only find my own comment that I watched both videos.

The guy offered no information supporting the P320 will fire without the trigger being moved unless you go poking around at the internal mechanisms with a stick.

quote:

Originally posted by bronicabill:
I just stumbled upon the following YT video that I found very interesting. I'm going to check out prices on M17s and M18s at my LGS in the next day or three to see if they really have fallen significantly due to this ongoing "issue". If they have, I might just have to buy one to keep as a range toy; the price will make all the difference though!

I have set it to start at the section which explains the "problem" and the VERY simple "solution". Feel free to watch the entire video if you wish, but the most interesting part is where the link is supposed to start!

YouTube video here...

Here's another one specific to the same modification to the sear as discussed in the above video...

Second YouTube video...

One final comment: Some people are of the opinion that this modification removes the update that Sig added to make the pistol completely drop safe. I don't know as I don't have one to mess with, so keep that in mind if you make your own mods!

Robert Burke, The SIG Armorer debunked that "experiment" in his video testimony of 5/30/25
I recommend you watch it.

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Originally posted by DirectDrive:
<<snip reference to two videos>>
Robert Burke, The SIG Armorer debunked that "experiment" in his video testimony of 5/30/25
I recommend you watch it.

Actually I did watch it, along with dozens more. I don't remember him talking about this issue, but between the many videos that I watched, which seemed to eventually all mash together, and my failing memory, it's not surprising that he covered it and I simply don't remember. Heck, after 17 pages worth, who can remember everything posted? And who is going to reread 17 pages before posting something they think is new, just in case it's already been mentioned?

Sorry if I rehashed something that's already been covered... it wasn't intentional.

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Originally posted by 92fstech:

quote:

Originally posted by kkina:
I've seen Robert Burke's video. However, if I'm not mistaken, he did all of his testing on a fully seated sear, not on a gun with a dead trigger. The trigger goes back, the trigger bar moves forward, but not quite enough to fully release the sear. The striker is now perched on the primary sear (red circle). Also, the safety lever is well clear of the striker, as it is designed to at this point in the firing cycle (blue circle).


P320 by kpkina, on Flickr

The operator notices the no-bang, and holsters the weapon. At some point a random vibration allows the striker to clear the sear notch, and the round goes off, inside the holster.

Theoretically this concept makes sense, however I can't figure out how that condition occurs in the first place. How does one get a dead trigger without dropping the sear? I have thousands and thousands of rounds through my own P320s at this point, and have been around probably fifty thousand more being fired through other people's guns, and I've never seen that happen. I've seen light strikes and a few other malfunctions, but the striker always drops when the trigger is pulled. Not saying it couldn't happen, as it sounds like it happened to Vancouver PD...I'd just like to know the details of how.

The answer might already be staring us in the face. Several sources have already implicated the P320's takedown lever mechanism as a possible factor. Unlike other striker guns, the 320's takedown bar also lowers the sear so the slide can be removed without a trigger press.

If that sear piece can be lowered, then by definition there exists a certain amount of tolerance slack that doesn't exist in other pistols. Add that to other tolerances, like slide lift, and you could have more than enough clearance for a sear perch. This would be on an unmodded gun with all the correct parts, not guns with the wrong takedown lever or wrong FCU altogether.

The current videos all seem to focus on the second stage in the firing cycle where this might occur, which means that a second safety must also fail, namely the striker safety. If the fault is occurring on the intial trigger pull, the striker safety is automatically disengaged anyway.

Interesting read of a lawsuit filed after Sig now infamous It ND’s Today post.

https://www.smbb.com/wp-conten...or-Mass-Action-4.pdf

“Sig Sauer knew, as early as 2016 and possibly earlier, that unintended discharges
caused by unintended trigger actuation was a known risk of the P320’s design, as testified to by
one of the P320’s chief designers, Matt Taylor.”

"...unintended trigger actuation..."

Well, anyone who has read this and other threads on this subject knows my position on the matter. It's not a perfect solution but it certainly is a solution.

"Internal documents from Immigration Customs Enforcement provide that unintended discharges skyrocketed when it switched its primary weapon from a Glock to the P320, with the P320 accounting for a nearly 500% increase in unintended discharges."

Yikes!

My, what ever might cause such a thing?

Eww your trigger has a dingus.

quote:

Originally posted by Mustang-PaPa:
Eww your trigger has a dingus.

Better than your trigger causing unintended removal of your dingus

Sig’s claim it ends today, stated a few weeks before New Hampshire court granting immunity, might lead one to believe Sig knew that immunity would happen.

not my quote, but my belief as well.

“ If Sig Sauer’s claims about the P320 are true, that it is a safe and reliable firearm with No design flaws, then there is no reason for them to lobby for immunity from lawsuits. Covering your ass is the first sign that you're full of shit.”


I thinks it’s a safe presumtion at lest one of Sig’s designers thought a trigger safety was a good idea.
Sig then told the Army that the manual safety should alleviate their concern about the unintended trigger actuations.

If uncommanded discharges in the P320 are occurring without the trigger moving, adding a Glock-like tab to the trigger would not solve the problem. It certainly helps prevent accidental discharges while one manipulates the pistol (holstering, etc.), preventing unintended movement of the trigger. I appreciate that feature in Glock pistols. But these uncommanded discharges in the P320 are occurring without the trigger moving at all.