quote:

Originally posted by OttoSig:
I haven’t gone back to verify dates and times of videos by gunsmiths so please correct me if I’m wrong, but haven’t we gone from, “there’s no way it can fire on its own”, to, “okay, it can fire on its own”.

Did Sig spill some previously undisclosed details? Did they change a part on the gun? It seems we’ve 180d from 12-18 months ago.

Again, I haven’t gone back to confirm but I feel like previously it was that a properly configured P320 was 100% and now it’s that a non-properly configured one isn’t. Most would say, “no shit”. But I feel like the overall sentiment towards the platform has started to shift.

If you were one to believe the amateur hack videos and the accusations coming from sloppy gun handling, faulty or incorrect holsters, etc. and were influenced, then it may seem to have flipped.
Robert Burke's 5/30 video addresses every single type of allegation and he does it in a very professional way.

A properly configured gun still hasn't been shown to fire on its own.

They have demonstrated that if you stick the takedown safety lever from a 10mm/.45 into a .9mm/.40/.357 FCU and fail to reset it by lifting the slide catch it can allow the sear to drop, and if you also disable the striker safety block the gun will discharge.

IMO that's not quite the same as "firing on its own", IMO, as it takes quite a lot of screwing with stuff you shouldn't to make that happen.

Yes, sentiment is shifting. But so far that seems to be based on perception and statistics rather than any mechanical proof.

ETA: I checked both of my extra slides tonight when I got home, including the one from the "58B" gun. Both striker safety blocks are stamped. So I have still not seen an MIM one.

quote:

A properly configured gun still hasn't been shown to fire on its own.

Exactly why I think 320s should all be fitted with tab triggers and slide safeties. Once this is done, we can see if reports of UDs continue to occur.

quote:

Originally posted by Chris17404:
Robert Burke's video is out:

https://www.facebook.com/sigar...eos/688763737101851/

YouTube version...



According to Robert Burke - "...the modern pistol, I don't believe has anything wrong with it. I just don't."

It's not a 180 degree shift that someone figured out that using the wrong
parts to assemble a P320 the wrong way while leaving broken parts in the firearm can cause problems.

Does anyone have any information that any of the P320s in question had these broken parts, wrong parts, and/or were incorrectly assembled?

Apparently, all three have to happen for the gun to fire without the trigger being pulled.

quote:

Does anyone have any information that any of the P320s in question had these broken parts, wrong parts, and/or were incorrectly assembled?

I've not heard of any cases where the wrong takedown safety lever was found to be installed.

I remember reading reports of broken striker safety locks in M17s, but I don't remember the source. Not sure if those were MIM or stamped parts. Burke said in his video that he has seen two broken striker safety locks, and both were very high round count MIM.

I saw that in Mr. Burke's video, but no claim was made that the two guns those broken parts came from fired without the trigger being pulled.

Correct.

There has been very little info released on the technical details of any of the suspect guns. The one attempt at forensic analysis that I've seen from a lawsuit filing a couple of years ago focused on sear engagement concerns, but they were unable to replicate the discharge and did not indicate that they found any broken parts in the gun.

I wish there was more detail publicly available about guns actually involved in incidents. Supposedly Garand Thumb got his hands on one a couple of weeks back, but I've not seen anything else about that.

I have not seen any evidence that any P320 involved in any of these incidents was found to be able to fire on its own during post-incident investigations.

This is the whole issue. Sure, we can build a gun with wrong and broken parts and make it malfunction. I have Robert Burke's hammer struts in many of my Sigs and they are great - he's an outstanding Sig gunsmith and the only real competition to Bruce Gray. But again, he has found a condition that has not been shown to exist on any of the actual incidents.

The issue with the original P320 was inertial actuation of the solid trigger during a drop impact. This has been addressed with the lighter "hollow" triggers and other aspects of the "upgrade". However, I do find the P320 trigger to be very short and light and not much different than carrying a hammer fired pistol with the hammer cocked and no safety. I prefer the M17/M18 manual safety and find it to be as ergonomic and intuitive as any 1911. I do have non-safety P320's but they are range guns. Agency Arms makes a Glock style trigger which I might try...

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Lefty Sig,

I bought my m17 from my friends small gunshop used but unfired. It came to me with the agency arms trigger.
The original buyer consigned it at a very low price because of all the bad publicity, he bought a Glock 17 to replace it.
Never fired, he bought it new last February and didn’t shoot it.
I figured at half price I’d just grab it and see where this all goes.
Currently my gunshop friend says he can’t move them, the last two sat there for two months. That definately wasn’t the case around the first of the year, then the media got on it and a lot of it was local stuff here in WA state.
The agency trigger reviews aren’t all that good. It works, but if you put your finger too high it won’t activate. This is well documented in many reviews of course.
My hope is Sig would make their own tabbed trigger, and I’ve read they had one on the 320 when it was first shown at SHOT show, but never sold any with it. I could be wrong but I kinda remember reading that.
The people I’ll listen to on this are Robert Burke and Grayguns. Like para said at one point in this thread stay away from the clickbait.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: tomgun,

quote:

Originally posted by tomgun:
My hope is Sig would make their own tabbed trigger, and I’ve read they had one on the 320 when it was first shown at SHOT show, but never sold any with it. I could be wrong but I kinda remember reading that.

What you remember is correct. A member here posted the literature that showed a prototype P320 w/ tabbed trigger safety. It was posted earlier this year.

The problem is that SIG-Sauer cannot now start shipping P320s with tabbed triggers because to do so would be tacit admission that this safety feature should have been there from the beginning.

quote:

Originally posted by iron chef:
A member here posted the literature that showed a prototype P320 w/ tabbed trigger safety. It was posted earlier this year.

Yep. That was me: https://sigforum.com/eve/forum...935/m/7020040415/p/5

Let’s assume the approximately 100 instances of uncommanded discharges are all true. If it were just humans making mistakes, that’s not enough instances out of a couple million pistols being manipulated on a daily basis, by orders of magnitude. Bruce Gray states that four mechanical parts must fail for there to be an uncommanded discharge. If he is correct, and I have zero reason to doubt him, then there are too many instances by orders of magnitude. To get to the number of instances we know of, it would take some combination of people doing something other than pulling a trigger that could contribute to a discharge WITH the four mechanical failures AT the same time. And Robert Burke has disproven the various proposed mechanisms for mechanical failures.

Assuming what Bruce Gray and Burke are saying is true, how many instances of ONE failure is occurring and make going unnoticed. As an example, let's say that the striker is released without a trigger pull, but the striker safety does its job and prevents the striker from hitting the primer. With the P320 design, does it just fire when you draw the weapon and pull the trigger? Would you have a dead trigger and have to tap-rack to get in the fight?

When trying to make the P320 go off, you'd have to make multiple failures or breakages happen simultaneously. When a police officer carries a holstered and chambered firearm for months at a time, perhaps one failure happens, then another happens some time later, resulting in the discharge. We may be thinking of the P320s firing sequence is too short of a time frame. How many officers p320 could be in service with the striker disengaged and the safety being all that is holding the striker back, or vice versa?

It would make sense that the PD guns are the ones typically going off. They get more jostling, more handling, more temperature swings and environmental oddities than your average gun, with less shooting and less loading and unloading. Many p320s may be in a state as theorized above without the user ever knowing it.

quote:

Assuming what Bruce Gray and Burke are saying is true, how many instances of ONE failure is occurring and make going unnoticed. As an example, let's say that the striker is released without a trigger pull, but the striker safety does its job and prevents the striker from hitting the primer. With the P320 design, does it just fire when you draw the weapon and pull the trigger? Would you have a dead trigger and have to tap-rack to get in the fight?

You would have a dead trigger. When the striker is at rest against the striker safety lock, there's virtually no spring pressure left...not even enough to extend the tip of the striker past the breech face if you manually depress the safety lock. There's no way releasing the striker from that position could set off a round.

I don't think that "dead trigger" condition would go unnoticed. Like you said, you'd have to rack the slide the next time you tried to fire the gun, and when a live round came flying out of the chamber it would be obvious to anybody even remotely competent that they didn't just forget to charge the gun.

The H&K VP9 had a well documented issue where the striker drops after the gun is subjected to a sharp impact (https://youtu.be/3kP9ZW57ov0?si=Z3h8DwKqVgoOgIsa). This condition was relatively quickly identified and there is lots of information out there on the internet about it. There are far fewer examples of the VP9 out in the wild than there are P320s, and it's also under a lot less scrutiny than the Sig. I think it's safe to say that if people were experiencing the same issue with the P320 we'd be hearing about it.

quote:

Originally posted by Nuclear:
Let’s assume the approximately 100 instances of uncommanded discharges are all true. If it were just humans making mistakes, that’s not enough instances out of a couple million pistols being manipulated on a daily basis, by orders of magnitude. Bruce Gray states that four mechanical parts must fail for there to be an uncommanded discharge. If he is correct, and I have zero reason to doubt him, then there are too many instances by orders of magnitude. To get to the number of instances we know of, it would take some combination of people doing something other than pulling a trigger that could contribute to a discharge WITH the four mechanical failures AT the same time. And Robert Burke has disproven the various proposed mechanisms for mechanical failures.

No P320 that was involved in an ND has ever shown under forensic examination to have incorrect or missing or broken parts.
This entire "theory" is based on an amateur gun hack Youtube video. The "Hawaiian Shirt Guy" video.
I'm surprised that Bruce Gray gave it so much time.

I have a folder of videos on my phone of Officers guns malfunctioning during gun fights. I’m up to 12 now.

There were a couple I saw where the officer drew, pulled the trigger and, the gun went click. He tapped and racked and, was back in business.

My initial thought was, damn. He forgot to chamber a round. In hindsight, I wonder if those were dead triggers.

IF the firing pin safety had broken, was defective, out of spec, stuck, whatever, he could have been carrying that gun for a long time without knowing.

If, whatever caused the dead trigger, like slipping off the sear, that gun would likely have fired.

I need to find those videos and see if they ejected a live round.

They are all polymer semi autos.

quote:

Originally posted by parabellum:
The problem is that SIG-Sauer cannot now start shipping P320s with tabbed triggers because to do so would be tacit admission that this safety feature should have been there from the beginning.

I completely agree. I would have said that this is also the reason why they added an intercept notch to the sear, instead of a full-on sear block, but that seems a less obvious change anyway, so I’m not sure.

Many here are more gracious to Robert’s video than the comments on YT.

It didn’t give me a warm and fuzzy to go buy an Sig and carry it AIWB, but he was convinced by Sig there wasn’t a problem and decided he didn’t need to release his proposed “fix”. So there is that.

IMO…I think the damage to Sig and the P320 may be irreversible. Perception is as important as whatever the reality may be about the P320. More importantly for me Sig’s flippant and condescending attitude are the issue. Plenty of other polymer guns out to choose from.