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You’re testing for the OLD problem. The new problem is unrelated. | |||
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Domari Nolo |
Just in case y'all haven't seen this yet: Video at: https://grayguns.com/ or https://www.instagram.com/reel/DKP_3hkz9jN/ SIG P320 Safety Warning: Confirmed Risk from Incorrect Internal Part Configuration Following a video released by LFD Research on May 19th, Grayguns conducted internal testing to evaluate a potential safety concern involving the SIG P320 platform. Our findings confirm the existence of a mechanical condition, triggered by an incorrect takedown safety lever and several additional factors, that can create the ability for the firearm to discharge without a trigger press. In this video, Grayguns Director of Gunsmithing Keith Hosey walks through: • What causes this issue • The specific combination of conditions required • How to check your own P320 for the incorrect part • What steps to take if you’re unsure To be clear: this issue does not occur under normal use, and requires an incorrect part to be installed in the gun, as well as multiple specific failures to create a hazard. However, out of an abundance of caution, we want all P320 owners to be informed. If you suspect your firearm may be affected, stop using it immediately and consult a qualified armorer. Special thanks to LFD Research for the time and effort that went into identifying this scenario. At Grayguns, safety and transparency remain our highest priorities. | |||
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| Domari Nolo |
https://www.wbur.org/news/2025...unintentional-firing Facing a wave of P320 lawsuits, Sig Sauer asked for immunity. N.H. lawmakers granted it Back in April, in a nearly empty room at the New Hampshire State House, Bobby Cox, an executive with gunmaker Sig Sauer, had come with a request. He said his company, one of the biggest gun manufacturers in the country and a major employer on New Hampshire’s Seacoast, needed protection. Specifically, Sig Sauer wanted state lawmakers to shield it from a barrage of liability lawsuits that allege the company’s best-selling P320 pistol has an inherent safety defect. “We want to bring this amendment to you to show what out-of-state plaintiffs’ attorneys are doing, attacking in-state businesses,” Cox told a Senate committee. “And we ask for your support and help.” Over the past few years, Newington-based Sig Sauer has been sued dozens of times by gun owners who were shot by their own P320s, including police officers and federal agents, and who claim the gun’s design — and its lack of an external safety — make the company liable for injuries. Sig Sauer has denied the weapons are unsafe and has been fighting the lawsuits in court. But over the past few weeks, the company has used its influence as one of the state’s largest manufacturers to change New Hampshire law to protect itself from future liability lawsuits. The measure Cox was advocating for swiftly cleared the Legislature, without any notice for public comment. Last week, Gov. Kelly Ayotte signed the bill — one day after it cleared its final vote — despite objections from some Democrats, as well as lawyers and injured plaintiffs who say the company should be forced to defend the claims in court. The speed with which the bill moved through the State House underscores both Sig Sauer’s desire to cut off future costly lawsuits, and the company’s sway in a Legislature run by a gun-friendly Republican Party. “Sig Sauer should focus on changing the defective design of its P320,” said Robert Zimmerman, a Pennsylvania-based attorney who has filed dozens of cases against the company. “Instead, Sig Sauer is paying lobbyists to change New Hampshire law to deprive local, state and federal law enforcement officers and private gun owners from having their day in court and to hold Sig Sauer accountable for their serious injuries.” ‘It’s never the firearm’ Since its rollout in 2017, the P320 pistol has become one of the country’s most popular pistols, with more than 3.6 million guns sold. A version of the gun is now carried by soldiers across every branch of the U.S. military, and the P320 is a leading choice for local and state law enforcement agencies. But in recent years, the civilian model of the gun has faced a steady stream of allegations over its trigger mechanism and its lack of an external safety as a standard feature. Dozens of people have filed lawsuits, claiming they suffered hip, leg or foot gunshot wounds after their P320s fired unexpectedly, often while holstered. Attorneys have called the gun the “most dangerous pistol” sold in the United States. The lawsuits have alleged that the company is negligent for not including an external safety and for not warning consumers about the weapon’s alleged risks. Sig Sauer has denied the allegations about the P320. “It's never the firearm,” Cox, the Sig Sauer lobbyist, told New Hampshire lawmakers in April. He blamed the injuries on a lack of training, as well as the weapon snagging on holsters or other items getting caught in the trigger. Judges and juries have handed down mixed verdicts in these lawsuits, and a proposed class action lawsuit was dismissed. But in the past year, two juries awarded multi-million dollar verdicts in favor of men injured by their P320. In New Hampshire, there are at least 80 pending cases against Sig Sauer. The new liability law, which prohibits lawsuits that focus on the gun’s lack of an external safety, won’t affect those cases. But it does shift the landscape for any future cases. Late introduction limits public input Critics of the bill point out that New Hampshire residents, including members of law enforcement, now have no avenue to seek financial compensation if they are injured by their P320. The bill also has national implications: plaintiffs attorneys have been filing cases in New Hampshire’s federal court — sometimes dozens at a time in groups — as a way to streamline the legal process. Now, those attorneys could be forced to manage individual cases in courts all around the country, which comes with added costs and potential delays. “It appears like you want to shut off an avenue for people to come to New Hampshire to get justice,” state Sen. Debra Altschiller, a Democrat, told Cox during the hearing in April. Local backers of Sig Sauer, though, view these cases as unwarranted and an attack on a major local employer. “Their home is New Hampshire,” Sen. Bill Gannon, the Republican lawmaker who introduced the Sig-friendly amendment, told colleagues. “They want to stay in New Hampshire, and they're asking us to help fight against false defective claims.” By introducing the amendment late in the Senate session, Gannon avoided any public notice for a hearing. Such a hearing, attorneys say, would have provided a forum for people injured by their P320 to explain to lawmakers the risks they allege the gun carries. “They're not going to have that opportunity now because it got railroaded through on a bullet train,” said Chuck Douglas, one of the local attorneys who has been involved in the liability cases. Douglas said the state was wrong to side with the gunmaker over litigants. “You don't see this coming in with other handguns,” he said. “It's just the P320.” | |||
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What this doesn't address is how the round is chambered. From what I understand, even in the malfunctioned position with the wrong take-down safety lever you can't insert a magazine. Unless someone is dropping a round in the chamber from above, I don't see this as quite the smoking gun that everyone thinks it is. For the cases we have seen and heard of: * Was your P320 found to have the wrong take-down safety lever? * Were you able to insert a magazine? * Ultimately, how did the round get in there? I guess what I am saying is that while this is "arguably" a problem in the design (people not following directions or using the wrong part notwithstanding), it still doesn't explain the un-commanded discharges we have seen so far. | |||
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Prepared for the Worst, Providing the Best |
Agreed. It's A problem, but it's not THE problem. It's also not a problem that I'm worried will happen to me because I don't install the wrong parts in my guns. Sig should mitigate this by clearly labeling the parts, though. | |||
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| Domari Nolo |
Incorrect. Watch the video. He covers this. | |||
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| Domari Nolo |
What if Sig accidentally installed the wrong part from the factory in many guns they sold? | |||
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Member |
It’s also possible that SIG received a batch or batches of out of spec parts from their suppliers and unknowingly installed those take down levers. Perhaps an even smaller discrepancy in take down lever size than the difference in size between the different caliber take down levers is enough to trigger this malfunction? Nowadays SIG only makes frames (or fire control modules), slides and barrels and assembles these items with parts sourced elsewhere. It’s a much different picture than existed years ago when SIG made much more of their own components and therefore had much greater control of the quality of the parts of their products. Maybe this is only one problem amongst potential others. Maybe this is THE problem, or part of it anyway. Either way, the significance of this cannot be understated, nor can the take down lever size be discounted as a culprit in the series of guns that have fired without the trigger being pulled. The lobbying push by SIG to absolve themselves of liability makes me think that people at SIG have found something that they believe could cause them considerable monetary impact. “It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.” | |||
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| Domari Nolo |
At this point, friends don't let friends own P320s. It's just not worth it, especially with so many other great choices. I feel bad for those who are mandated to use them. I've never owned a P320, for several reasons. I suppose blame for this fiasco lies at the feet of both the shooting public as well as Sig. The general shooting public, who on average can't shoot very well, demanded shorter and lighter trigger pulls in order to buy skill and pose on Instagram. Sig answered that market demand by creating an extremely complicated pistol design that runs on the ragged edge of safety to begin with. That, coupled with the interchangeable/modular design which encourages tinkering and swapping of parts, poor manufacturing quality, and the almighty dollar, brings us to where we are today. | |||
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| Member |
Thanks for the clarification 8:30 https://youtu.be/7H4Ri409-5I?s...oOfWwDNOxsLGSV&t=510 | |||
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| Domari Nolo |
No problem. I was actually referencing the GrayGuns video, but that video works too. | |||
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| Prepared for the Worst, Providing the Best |
Then Sig would absolutely be liable. I have yet to see any documented cases of that occurring, though. This condition would become obvious to the user pretty quickly even if the gun didn't fire, because you'd get a dead trigger. If that was happening you'd think we'd be hearing about it, and people would be replicating it all over the internet. That was certainly the outcome with the H&K VP9 striker drop issues, and the P320 is under a lot more scrutiny. Also, if this was the cause of the discharges it would be easily repeatable and identifiable on the affected guns. And it still doesn't explain how the striker safety lock is being defeated. | |||
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| Domari Nolo |
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Down the Rabbit Hole |
So Robert Burke didn't really know what he was talking about before his visit to the Sig Mothership. I think Mr. Burke went to bed with a seed pod next to his bed in a hotel room in NH.  Good to know all the blame lies with the holster makers and poor officer training. Diligentia, Vis, Celeritas "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." -- George Orwell | |||
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| Member |
This is interesting, particularly considering the recent announcement from Grayguns. Something smells rotten in Denmark (or maybe NH) to me. I also think it was interesting that he only talks about tolerance stacking with respect to the FCU. I could absolutely see there being a problem with other fire control parts that SIG doesn’t manufacture. This video just seems absolutely strange to me given the Ben Stoeger video that Robert even references. Perhaps that seed pod in Mr. Burke’s hotel room isn’t that far off the mark… “It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.” | |||
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| Peace through superior firepower  |
Let's be nice, please. Certainly, it must be quite flattering to Mr. Burke for SIG-Sauer to hold a conference call with him and then host him for an entire day in their factory, including a five hour boardroom meeting with SIG-Sauer management and engineers, but do you think he spent a half hour in his published video just kissing their ass because he's charmed by their attention? I think the man was sincere in his statements. Though I believe his graphic would have been much better as Powerpoint slide rather than as a hand-drawn 3x5 card. it's clear that he did perform testing intended to quantify matters. For the record, I did watch his entire video today, and though I'm sure no one on this planet cares what I think of the cause(s) of the P320 un-commanded discharges, I think Robert Burke may be on the right track. Light-bearing holsters and, in some instances, poor re-holstering technique may be the issues (though we do have video evidence of P320s firing while in the holster), but I am skeptical of his theory that Startle Response is a factor at all. Once again, I return what I have said many times regarding P320 un-commanded (and also perhaps negligent) discharges: A tabbed / safety-bladed trigger would benefit the P320 as much as it benefits the Glock and other pistols which incorporate this safety feature. Regarding Mr. Burke's change of opinion, any man who can admit he was mistaken and who is not resistant to changing his mind when presented with new evidence (or after a reconsideration of existing evidence) has my respect. | |||
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| Down the Rabbit Hole |
Will do, Para. It is a little concerning that someone with the expertise of Mr. Burke, after looking into these issues extensively, can be wrong about possible issues. To me, this shows just how complex the P320 design is. That alone does not inspire confidence in the platform. Diligentia, Vis, Celeritas "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." -- George Orwell | |||
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| Prepared for the Worst, Providing the Best |
I don't know Mr. Burke, and I've never done business with him. I know he has a bunch of fans here on the forum who have been pleased with his work, and I know there's at least one detractor (I'm not sure what that issue is, but it doesn't really matter as it's none of my business). Overwhelmingly, though, the impression of him seems to be positive. Much like that of Bruce Gray. Sig seems to be doing some shady stuff, but I have no reason to think that of Mr. Burke or Mr. Gray. I found that video to be very thoughtful and informative. I believe he is being honest. He addressed a few issues that have been brough up lately here in this thread, like the purpose of the rear sear leg. He also performed testing and measurements that most of us don't have the instrumentation to conduct. His explanation of the sear/striker/trigger bar/safety lever relationship and the forces necessary to simultaneously defeat the striker safety block through depressing the sear was enlightening. I was also unaware that the striker safety block was in fact at one point an MIM part. That was discussed in the Focus Trip Youtube video, and questioned by Ian in his forgotten weapons video...but apparently there was some truth to it. Every P320 striker assembly that I've looked at in the past several months has had a stamped striker safety block. I can't recall ever seeing an MIM version, despite owning a 58A and a 58B P320. My subcompact is a 58A gun, and I just checked and it definitely does not have an MIM striker safety block in it. I have the original slide from my 58B gun at home, so I'll check and confirm that one tonight. All of mine are either post-upgrade production guns or were sent in for the upgrade, so it's also possible the assemblies were upgraded as part of that change. | |||
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| Member |
I thought Robert Burke did an excellent job in his recent video (5/30) addressing all of the issues, rumors and allegations swirling around P320. Amateur hack Youtube videos addressed as well. Maybe some will even get themselves "uninfluenced" by these amateur Youtube videos when arguably the premier P320 gunsmith in the nation weighs in, shows his testing results and gives his opinion. | |||
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Member |
I haven’t gone back to verify dates and times of videos by gunsmiths so please correct me if I’m wrong, but haven’t we gone from, “there’s no way it can fire on its own”, to, “okay, it can fire on its own”. Did Sig spill some previously undisclosed details? Did they change a part on the gun? It seems we’ve 180d from 12-18 months ago. Again, I haven’t gone back to confirm but I feel like previously it was that a properly configured P320 was 100% and now it’s that a non-properly configured one isn’t. Most would say, “no shit”. But I feel like the overall sentiment towards the platform has started to shift. 10 years to retirement! Just waiting! | |||
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