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Originally posted by Chris17404:

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Originally posted by parabellum:
Did you watch that video, Chris?

Yes.

Thank you. A five minute video is one thing; people can quickly review it on their own, but when you post a video that runs over 45 minutes, please give brief synopsis for the benefit of our members and readers.

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Originally posted by kkina:

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"an MSP armorer... installed the subject weapon's modified trigger"

Didn't the video say is was modified to bring the trigger back into spec, due to the original being out-of-spec?

The video said a lot of things and, of course, is going viral. The comments on the video capture the mood of that.

I've quoted extracts from the actual report, which can be seen in context on the pages shown in the video.

The report is clear on this: the trigger at the time of the incident was not the original factory trigger; there were marks inside the trigger guard consistent with the abrasion caused in tests by keys pressing the trigger inside the holster; the mechanism was dirty, had not been serviced before use, and could be partially operated by pressing the modded trigger sideways; there was wear and damage and the gun had previously been dropped; etc.

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Originally posted by DirectDrive:
Thanks for the breakdown, landowner.
Sounds like a long-winded nothing burger to me, ushered along by the drama provided by the Youtuber.

The concept of the striker safety being disabled by twisting motion does not seem possible if one is familiar with the P320.

I was thinking the same.

Well, on that particular point, presenting without context is extremely misleading. Perhaps you can edit-to-add the missing info for more clarity?

For those not wanting to watch the entire video (and for that I don't blame you), the portion that concerned me starts just after 33 minutes into the video. Apparently they manipulated the gun in some way to try and mimic the forces that might be applied to it in the holster under normal duty use. It doesn't specify exactly how they did this. But by doing that, it somehow defeated the striker safety block and allowed the gun to fire when the sear was manually depressed without a trigger pull.

Directly prior to that portion of the video he lists several other tests which the gun passed. So the difference in outcome was created by whatever force or manipulations the gun was subjected to for that final test.

At approx 7:10 in the video, they discuss “dead Trigger issues”. That prompted modifications by Sig and Sig trained armorers.

A dead trigger, indicates to me, that the sear and striker have released at some time while the gun was in use, being carried.

If the FBI has conclusively proved, as I think they have in that video, the the striker block can fail during routine carrying and handling, then the two holes of the Swiss cheese line up for an uncommanded discharge.

The firing pin safety has failed unknown to the user. It could possibly be in a non functioning state for days or month. And, whatever causes the “dead trigger” occurs. IE, the sear releasing.

I’ve seen several police shooting videos (I can’t find them right now) of officers drawing and pulling the trigger with the gun not firing. The officer does a quick rack and, is back in business. I did not pay attention to what gun it was but, they were polymer duty guns. The first few times I saw those I remember thinking “What a dumbass, he forgot to chamber a round.”

In hindsight, those were potentially dead triggers.

Several folks on forums have reported dead triggers, randomly, on Sig P320’s. IF the striker block had failed, every one of those were potential uncommanded discharges.

A brief google search brought up numerous posts regarding dead triggers. I’d be curious how many folks have experienced that.

My pet theory is that in the event of a dead trigger, there wouldn't have to be a failure of the striker safety at all. Pulling the trigger automatically releases the safety, as it's designed to do. Then if the reason for not firing immediately is a sear perch, the gun is primed to discharge at the next random jostle (assuming it also clears the secondary sear, perhaps due to tolerance stacking). All the Swiss cheese holes now aligned.

quote:

Originally posted by parabellum:
Thank you. A five minute video is one thing; people can quickly review it on their own, but when you post a video that runs over 45 minutes, please give brief synopsis for the benefit of our members and readers.

Will do. My brief synopsis may be different from what others on the forum may formulate, so I didn't want to influence their decision to view the video. Just wanted to get the data out there for consumption. My view is that the FBI investigation (a highly respected and authoritative source) was yet another example showing a significant safety issue in the P320, where the striker safety lock doesn't work and sear engagement can be lost, which can allow the pistol to discharge by simply bumping or manipulating it in the holster in a common, everyday way.

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Originally posted by landowner:


The report is clear on this: the trigger at the time of the incident was not the original factory trigger; there were marks inside the trigger guard consistent with the abrasion caused in tests by keys pressing the trigger inside the holster; the mechanism was dirty, had not been serviced before use, and could be partially operated by pressing the modded trigger sideways; there was wear and damage and the gun had previously been dropped; etc.

Did you miss the part that the officer in question’s hands were both full at the time and not in contact with the firearm? In fact one of the things in his or her hands was their keys. Did you see the x-rays taken of the pistol in its holster? Everything that I’m seeing indicates to me that they treated this with the same chain of custody concerns as they would for a weapon used in a homicide and there is nothing that indicates that there was anything inside the holster at the time the gun discharged.

They were unable to duplicate all of the events that occurred that led up to and culminated with an uncommanded discharge, but they were absolutely able to replicate conditions that would allow safety systems to fail in such a way that an uncommanded discharge is possible. The other thing is that the Michigan State Police is very systematic in their analyses of LE items. They routinely test police cars and provide that scientific testing to the public and other police agencies. I am aware of some EOD related tools that were in development that MSP tested, with testing results published. There is no reason to believe that this testing wasn’t approached in a thoughtful, repeatable, scientifically valid manner, and that testing revealed some potential design flaws which if combined in a particular fashion could absolute cause this pistol to fire without bathe trigger being pulled.

I honestly can’t imagine a police administrator deciding to move forward with the P320 platform and away from something else with all there is out there now and the FBI of all places pointing out designs safety flaws. I’m not saying that administrators should be rushing to get rid of P320s that they already have, but I can’t imagine deciding to move away from another pistol and TO the P320 at this point

Does anyone have a link for the report? I would like to read it objectively without a negative, biased voice telling us what to think.

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Originally posted by kkina:
Well, on that particular point, presenting without context is extremely misleading. Perhaps you can edit-to-add the missing info for more clarity?

Context is important, and the entire report is available in the video.

Do let us know if you can find a specific extract cited from the report that's contradicted by the wider context. Otherwise, hopefully the extracts provide a useful synopsis of some key facts in the case.

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Originally posted by Lt CHEG:
Did you miss the part that the officer in question’s hands were both full at the time and not in contact with the firearm? In fact one of the things in his or her hands was their keys. Did you see the x-rays taken of the pistol in its holster?

I couldn't find anything in the report saying the keys were not in contact with the gun.

The report authors do seem to be trying to tell us something about what they were thinking, albeit inconclusive:-

"abrasion... inside the trigger guard..." (Fig. 13.)

"The staff member was able to force his trigger into the holster and contact the trigger..."

"... was holding objects in his hands when the event occurred, including his keys..."

"BRF was successful in using keys, both flat and serrated, to press the trigger while the M18 was holstered."

"THE TRIGGER COULD BE FULLY PRESSED TO THE REAR WITH SUFFICIENT PRESSURE AGAINST THE SIDE OF THE TRIGGER ONLY, OR BY USING THE HOLSTER AS A FULCRUM."

"... the keys caused an abrasion on the trigger guard near the area of the abrasion seen on the weapon..."

"SIG Sauer M18... with X Flat Blade Trigger."

"... examination of the subject weapon did not independently provide evidence of an uncommanded discharge..."

These points, considered within their wider context, are the closest thing I can find in the official report to a convincing hypothesis about a mechanical process that could have caused the incident.

After going to the trouble of documenting these important points, the report does not rule this out as the root cause.

In summary, the report confirms that there was an unexplained abrasion inside the trigger guard, and furthermore proves that the same abrasion could be caused by keys operating the modded trigger within the holster. That's the opposite of ruling out keys as a potential cause. It rules in keys as a potential cause.

This type of report must walk a fine line, so that might be the closest they can get to coming out and saying something directly, and one must read between the lines to an extent. What else caused the abrasion? What else caused the trigger to pull?

The report also notes that the custom trigger fitted could be partially operated by a sideways movement, which perhaps could happen inside some holsters even without a foreign object involved.

The video is being presented in some places as definitive proof that something about the design of the the P320 can cause to a UD. But reading the report, it's clear that's not the case.

quote:

Originally posted by Chris17404:
<snip>

where the striker safety lock doesn't work and sear engagement can be lost, which can allow the pistol to discharge by simply bumping or manipulating it in the holster in a common, everyday way.

I don't recall hearing where the FBI was able to cause the sear to disengage without either intentionally manually depressing it, or grinding it down for the secondary sear notch test. Did I miss that? If so, can you direct me to the part of the video where it's discussed? Or is that in reference to the issue of the dead triggers experienced by the agency that he talked about at the beginning of the video, they they supposedly corrected by supplying the agency with modified trigger shoes? I am curious about the cause of that, and what they modified on the triggers to fix it.

Regardless, failure of the striker safety lock is a huge problem.

I also agree, FBI BRF is a highly credible source on this, and their investigation appears to have been very thorough.

I'm beginning to wonder what else has been presented without context.

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Originally posted by landowner:
This type of report must walk a fine line, so that might be the closest they can get to coming out and saying something directly, and one must read between the lines to an extent. What else caused the abrasion? What else caused the trigger to pull?

The report also notes that the custom trigger fitted could be partially operated by a sideways movement, which perhaps could happen inside some holsters even without a foreign object involved.

The video is being presented in some places as definitive proof that something about the design of the the P320 can cause to a UD. But reading the report, it's clear that's not the case.

Who made that trigger that was installed on the firearm? I believe it was a SIG trigger because it looks exactly like the one I was issued at my last gig in CA which was also 100% SIG parts. So SIG doesn’t get any sort of pass when it’s their own replacement trigger that was installed in the pistol. Plus there’s no reason to believe that the armorer that installed the part wasn’t a SIG factory trained and certified armorer. So no breaks for SIG there.

I’m on my phone so can’t look at the report in detail right now but I recall it mentioning that the reason for the replacement trigger in the first place was because MSP was having issues with dead triggers in their pistols. As for the abrasion in the trigger guard I also seem to recall them not knowing definitively what caused the abrasion but also mentioned that the pistol had been dropped during training and suggesting that as a possible explanation. I’m certain I recall reading that the officer’s keys were in one of their hands and that both hands were full and not in contact with the pistol. While keys might be able to cause the gun to function there’s nothing in the report that would cause one to believe that the FBI thought that to be the cause of this uncommanded discharge.

As far as reading between the lines, etc one doesn’t have to do much of that at all. The report conclusively demonstrates that one of the safety mechanisms can fail during normal situations that a police officer might encounter. That is absolutely a defect in the examined pistol. Whether or not that defect was what caused the uncommanded discharge or whether that defect is a design flaw or the product of just one flawed pistol, the fact remains that the FBI conclusively demonstrated that one of the safety features of this pistol is susceptible to failure. That’s pretty definitive as I read it.

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Originally posted by Lt CHEG:
... the fact remains that the FBI conclusively demonstrated that one of the safety features of this pistol is susceptible to failure.

What is the mechanism for causing that failure?

Specifically, what steps can be followed to reproduce a failure (if there was one) and thus demonstrate the problem?

""*may* be possible *if* sear engagement is lost..."

"*If* the striker safety lock spring leg lost engagement with the top of the striker safety lock, the lock would no longer be spring-loaded and could *possibly* seize or "free-float" rendering the striker safety lock inoperable."

I personally don't interpret words like "if" "may" "possibly" as conclusive. And I have yet to see this hypothetical failure mechanism explained or demonstrated.

In contrast, the key-in-holster mechanism was conclusively demonstrated. Not only that, it left an abrasion inside the trigger guard exactly like the one photographed on the gun immediately after the incident.

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Originally posted by landowner:
In contrast, the key-in-holster mechanism was conclusively demonstrated. Not only that, it left an abrasion inside the trigger guard exactly like the one photographed on the gun immediately after the incident.

Except for the fact that multiple police officer witnesses were able to confirm that keys were not in the holster at the time the gun fired. There was also the X-ray of the gun in its holster that revealed no keys inside the holster or near the trigger. Keys did NOT cause the uncommanded discharge of the MSP pistol in question. I don’t know how that could be any more clear.

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Originally posted by Lt CHEG:
Except for the fact that multiple police officer witnesses were able to confirm that keys were not in the holster at the time the gun fired. There was also the X-ray of the gun in its holster that revealed no keys inside the holster or near the trigger. Keys did NOT cause the uncommanded discharge of the MSP pistol in question. I don’t know how that could be any more clear.

The report does not rule out keys as the cause. The report does not say keys did not cause it.

No human can see what is happening inside an opaque holster.

It's also possible that something else caused the discharge.

Unfortunately, thus far nobody has been able to describe or reproduce any of the hypothetical mechanisms causing that officer's firearm to discharge, other than the key-in-holster mechanism. Similarly, nobody has yet demonstrated a reproducible mechanism causing any post-upgrade P320 to fire. Eventually that might happen.

They may not have been able to get it to fire, but they were able to reproduce a condition where the striker safety block was defeated by external pressure. That's a big problem, and I want more details.

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Originally posted by 92fstech:
They may not have been able to get it to fire, but they were able to reproduce a condition where the striker safety block was defeated by external pressure. That's a big problem, and I want more details.

Definitely looking forward to getting those details which are conspicuous by their absence. Until then, it's a mystery.

Doc Link.. https://drive.google.com/file/...Ieeyc-nel3bsDnM/view

Any thoughts on the quality of the parts on pages 16 and 17?

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Unfortunately, thus far nobody has been able to describe or reproduce any of the hypothetical mechanisms causing that officer's firearm to discharge, other than the key-in-holster mechanism.

Not sure exactly how you meant this, but I (an engineer) came up with a theory on how UDs could be occurring. A brief summary is on this page. A more detailed explanation w/diagram is on page 17.