I have zero confidence in civil juries to make accurate knowledgeable decisions about technical topics. It means nothing to me towards revealing fact or truth if juries awarded money.

quote:

Originally posted by Fly-Sig:
My kydex holsters all secure around the trigger guard by molding the plastic tighter. Since the plastic has a curve, that narrower region must persist somewhat towards the trigger. Whereas in my fanny pack the holster is a soft pouch that surrounds the trigger area but doesn't intrude inside the trigger guard.

Is it possible in some plastic holsters that the action of holstering could bump the trigger slightly, especially if aggressively inserted?

Based on the list of UD provided by ChatGPT, showing the vast majority occur when holstered, and most appearing to be LEO holsters...I believe this is a likely interactive cause.

quote:

Originally posted by Fly-Sig:

Is it possible in some plastic holsters that the action of holstering could bump the trigger slightly, especially if aggressively inserted?

Absolutely. The Sig trigger is pretty wide and the trigger guard is thin for a trigger without a tabbed safety and a fully cocked striker.

IMO. It's certainly possible and the distance the trigger needs to travel to hit the wall is short as has been demonstrated.

I think many are looking for proof or one specific design flaw/reason this is happening.
Pro or con and personally that's not how I see this playing out.

I think it a combination of many issues. Sig's lack of self-awareness/engagement outside of lawyering up, is one of them.

I've always believed the Sig was an unsafe pistol for me, based on a combination of factors.
Drop safe, light trigger pull, fully cocked striker, min distance side of trigger to trigger guard side and lack of tabbed safety. It didn't give me a warm fuzzy. Love my VTAC Xcarry too, but just couldn't.

We've seen demonstrated, debris or burnt powder on the sear causing the already minimal distance of sear engagement to be even smaller. Slide movement in the vertical axis is a major red flag for me with small sear engagement surfaces being reduced. From what I've seen and read, the secondary sear catch doesn't always work. The striker safety lever, is a major design choice that I believe was a mistake. These are the big ones for me.

There a many variables including the regular maintenance or lack of, by the user and possibly the longevity of the parts Sig is manufacturing that will be factors if a pistol fails.

This is not a simple "oh we can fix this by doing X". Don't wait for it or expect that to happen. The P320 as we know it, is done, too much wrong with it.

quote:

Originally posted by Blackwater:
Another fact: civili lawsuits settled before going to court are not always a matter of public record.

The filing of the suit and the fact that it was reconciled out of court are in the court records.

Do you have any knowledge that SIG has settled any suits against SIG regarding the P320 in court or otherwise and if you do, will you provide a link, please? The first part is yes/no.

It is a known fact that almost all prior incidences of "it just went off!" with other duty firearms, were in fact, caused by operator error.

It happened with Glock when many agencies moved from DA revolvers or DA/SA semi-autos. After much hand wringing and investigation, it was found that the Glocks were not the issue. After that determination, all subsequent incidents have been attributed to operator error and any claims of "it just went off!" are essentially ignored.

The Audi 5000 unintended acceleration is similar. Pedal misapplication occurs in other cars, and is always found to be operator error. It is most common in cars that elderly people prefer. But the Audi 5000 was new and different and the buyers were wealthier, younger, and more litigious and dragged the whole thing out for years until it was finally determined to be operator error.

You might also look up the "windshield pitting" scare in the 50's:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...eld_pitting_epidemic

In this case extreme attention to a common noise-level thing and pundits attributing all sorts of hypothetical causes created a mass hysteria.

The recent Air India 787 crash - there were all kinds of theories and people looking into how both engines could fail at the same time and debates and what have you. In the end, the cause was the operator.

The P320 is relatively new and its use is expanding rapidly. Operator errors will ALWAYS occur at some noise level and said operators almost always say "it just went off!". In time the facts will determine if there is any issue with the P320 itself. Considering the fact that none of the pistols involved in these incidents have any detectible defect, and the UD cannot be replicated by investigators, the evidence points elsewhere.

In the meantime - how many claimed "uncommanded discharges" are occurring with other duty pistols? How are they recorded? Since we know Glocks do not just "go off" are all ND's immediately attributed to operator error and recorded as such?

quote:

Originally posted by trapper189:

quote:

Originally posted by Blackwater:
Another fact: civili lawsuits settled before going to court are not always a matter of public record.

The filing of the suit and the fact that it was reconciled out of court are in the court records.

Do you have any knowledge that SIG has settled any suits against SIG regarding the P320 in court or otherwise and if you do, will you provide a link, please? The first part is yes/no.

Those "court records" in civil lawsuits are sealed and not a part of the public record.
For instance, in a divorce, if it is settled by a mediated settlement agreement, the amounts awards from the estate are not included in the public record, preventing non effected parties from obtaining those amounts from the mediated settlement.

Links have already been provided.

quote:

Originally posted by Blackwater:.
Links have already been provided.

None of the links you provide support your statements:

quote:

Originally posted by Blackwater:
Lawsuits that were settled have not and will not divulge details of other uncommanded discharges, so the "facts" have not been completely determined or released.

quote:

Originally posted by Blackwater:

quote:

Originally posted by trapper189:
Have there been any lawsuits in these incidents that were settled?

Yes, 2 that I know of one for 11+ mil

quote:

Originally posted by trapper189:
Links have already been provided.

None of the links you provide support your statements:

You're entitled to you opinion.

quote:

Originally posted by Lt CHEG:

quote:

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Black92LX:

I am simply asking questions. And here is the one you have yet to answer.

Since it is soley the guns fault and has NOTHING AT ALL TO DO WITH THE HOLSTER, then WHY ARE THE GUNS NOT FIRING UNCOMMANDED OUTSIDE OF A HOLSTER?????????
Or why has it not happened in a leather holster???

That’s a fair question. I don’t know that there haven’t been Uncommanded discharges outside of a holster, but if there have been they certainly haven’t been covered significantly. However, if you’re asking that question, I think it also only makes sense to ask the question - why isn’t this occurring with other popular striker fired LE pistols? Why is it only SIG and not Glock, HK, S&W M&P, when all of those pistols are in very common use by law enforcement

That’s why I asked has the Sig FCU become so overly intricate and complicated that simply forming material around a firearm platforms and choosing a tighter point to lock the holster in across firearms is no longer the way folks should be designing holsters?

Especially when we now have multiple, size, thickness, material, and manufacturers designing grip modules that come in contact with the holster?

quote:

Originally posted by 4MUL8R:

quote:

Originally posted by Fly-Sig:
My kydex holsters all secure around the trigger guard by molding the plastic tighter. Since the plastic has a curve, that narrower region must persist somewhat towards the trigger. Whereas in my fanny pack the holster is a soft pouch that surrounds the trigger area but doesn't intrude inside the trigger guard.

Is it possible in some plastic holsters that the action of holstering could bump the trigger slightly, especially if aggressively inserted?

Based on the list of UD provided by ChatGPT, showing the vast majority occur when holstered, and most appearing to be LEO holsters...I believe this is a likely interactive cause.

quote:

Originally posted by Blackwater:

quote:

Originally posted by Fly-Sig:

Is it possible in some plastic holsters that the action of holstering could bump the trigger slightly, especially if aggressively inserted?

Absolutely. The Sig trigger is pretty wide and the trigger guard is thin for a trigger without a tabbed safety and a fully cocked striker.

IMO. It's certainly possible and the distance the trigger needs to travel to hit the wall is short as has been demonstrated.

Gentleman if you would please look a couple of pages back. Numerous folks here on the forum have told us ABSOLUTELY 100% not possible for the holster to at all be the problem.
To my inquiry as to why is this only happening in holsters.

No thanks.

Yea, nothing is 100% certain at this point and anything is possible.

From the reports I've seen, it has happened
while in the holster
while being drawn from a holster and
while being reholstered

None of that would lead me to believe the holster is the issue.

The P320 FCU is no more intricate than the P365 FCU. For that matter, the VP9 and any DA/SA semi auto are no less intricate either. And DA revolvers are much more intricate. We have not seen ANY small parts failures or ANY ability to replicate the incidents with the P320. Most of the complexity is due to the added parts to prevent the takedown lever from being turned with a magazine in the pistol and to retract the sear for takedown. The actual firing mechanism of trigger, trigger bar, FPS lever, and sear is pretty simple.

Second, there is no evidence that any aftermarket grip module has been involved in any incident, only the standard Sig grip and the Sig X-Grip. I would think that duty pistols would only have Sig grip modules and aftermarket would be disallowed. So let's not introduce variables that are not a factor in the actual incidents.

The only evidence I have seen is that the incidents occur in DUTY holsters designed for large two-battery weapon lights - Safariland and Alien Gear. And we know that these allow a finger or other objects to contact the trigger and potentially pull it. I am not sure the exact holster used in the Air Force death, so that would be good to know.

I do remember an incident a while back where an older leather P226 holster was used but in that case it was determined that the P320 did not "just go off!".

There is no evidence the Marine/Okinawa or Air Force (dead airmen) incidents used holsters designed for weapon lights.

Military guards do not typically use or are issued a handgun mounted weapon light.
I've never seen a AF guard with a handgun and mounted weapon light/holster.

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:
You left out just a few-

It is also A FACT that-

5- the 320 suffered from out of battery discharges where SIG blamed the ammo. Despite across the spectrum none of the ammo
Was the same and the ammo didn’t detonate in other platforms. SIG quietly made changes to the military guns, and then civilian guns and the problem went away.
6-SIG denied there were problems with the 320 being drop safe. All the pundits (to include me) said there was no way it could happen. It couldn’t be replicated in testing. Until it was. And it turns out SIG knew this a year prior but just planned to quietly roll out changes.
7-Safariland offers holsters for something like 50 other models. None of them are randomly going off in the holster.
8- IT ENDS TODAY and all of the other Slimey shit that SIG is doing tells me they know what’s going on but are trying to manage the bottom line instead of doing the right thing. Even the shills can’t explain this away. They just ignore it and blame everything else instead of acknowledging the 320 has really been a turd since day one.

The P320 discussion is littered with accusations, misrepresentations and declarations all claimed to be facts.
With no back-up.
One needs to filter out the noise and look for the real facts.

I've got P320 overload...just tried to log in a few minutes ago and was typing in rat3206...

Maybe just shut the computer off, grab a beer and some popcorn, watch "Rio Bravo" on DVD, then hit the boards and YT again later.

quote:

Originally posted by Blackwater:
https://www.military.com/daily...tch-p320-pistol.html

https://www.cbsnews.com/philad...hams-wounded-pistol/

https://www.thetrace.org/2024/...wsuit-safety-issues/

I never said it was a case that was settled. Wow dude, calm down.
It's a case that didn't go to civil jury trial, so how could it be settled?
Read the article.

Did you know that The Trace is a Bloomberg-funded outlet ?
As a gun owner, I wouldn't re-post anything by The Trace.

Let's please get into the habit of pairing down quotes only to the essential. All this full-quoting takes up a tremendous amount of real estate on the page.

If you're not sure how to edit out some of the text when you quote, please ask. There's not much to it.

Let's strive to streamline what we post, please. This is a long thread which grows more each day and we need to make sure we're not needlessly duplicating content already in the thread.

quote:

Originally posted by Fly-Sig:
My kydex holsters all secure around the trigger guard by molding the plastic tighter. Since the plastic has a curve, that narrower region must persist somewhat towards the trigger. Whereas in my fanny pack the holster is a soft pouch that surrounds the trigger area but doesn't intrude inside the trigger guard.

Is it possible in some plastic holsters that the action of holstering could bump the trigger slightly, especially if aggressively inserted?

I think it's very likely that this is a main reason for the un-commanded discharges.
It's a combination of things.

1) Side pressure from a holster (or other "container")
2) Narrow trigger guard
3) Lack of trigger safety

I could put a Glock in a paper bag and stomp the living s$it out of it and never get it to go off. If a pistol discharges from a little holster side flex, the problem isn't the holster.

quote:

Originally posted by DirectDrive:

Did you know that The Trace is a Bloomberg-funded outlet ?
As a gun owner, I wouldn't re-post anything by The Trace.

Yes I did. Doesn't change the facts, does it?