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| Savor the limelight |
Except nobody has been able to show how that could happen. Even the lawsuit Blackwater posted in the middle of pg 17 doesn't make that claim. Thirty seperate incidents in that lawsuit and not one claim is based on the gun firing without the trigger moving. Thirty seperate guns and all they would have to do is prove that one of them did that. Expand that out to every gun involved in every incident and not one has been shown to be capable of firing without the trigger being moved. Just one is all it takes and yet, that has not happened. Just one out of hundreds and it would be case closed. Every lawyer, youtube expert, blogger, etc. wishes they could be the one to prove it and yet they haven't. That whole line of thinking is a red herring from Sig. What the lawsuit Blackwater posted claims is that Sig did not use industry standard safety mechanisms which contributed to the ease of the trigger being moved unintentionally. Around 25 of the 30 incidents in the lawsuit involved holsters. | |||
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Shall Not Be Infringed |
Clearly SIG is 'guilty' of innovation here...  ____________________________________________________________ If Some is Good, and More is Better.....then Too Much, is Just Enough !! Trump 47....Make America Great Again! "May Almighty God bless the United States of America" - parabellum 7/26/20 Live Free or Die! | |||
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| Savor the limelight |
A light SA trigger with no safety to prevent it from being unintentionally pulled is innovation? Didn't they have those 150 years ago, but carried them on an empty chamber? How many mechanisms have been created so that doesn't happen? Double set triggers, grip safety, thumb safety, cross bolt safety, DAO, DA/SA, DAK, etc. At least they still use a trigger guard. | |||
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Prepared for the Worst, Providing the Best |
The only lawsuits that are going anywhere are those accusing Sig of failing to adhere to include "industry standard" safety features on their guns. And to my understanding, that is what the law change in New Hampshire was written to protect them from. IMO this is something that users need to take into account and be aware of up front, not something that I want the government or the courts mandating. How many of us like the internal lock on S&W revolvers? Or mandated manual safeties on pistols, or obtrusive loaded chamber indicators? How about magazine disconnect safeties? Seems we had a recent thread here about those. This is the exact type of thing that places like Massachusetts and California have been doing for years, and all of us gun owners have been complaining about. I think Sig has been pretty shady in how they've gone about things, but I also don't like the government mandating decisions about designs and features of tools, whether that's through direct legislation or threat of civil penalty. Guns are dangerous. When you buy and carry one, there's a certain amount of personal responsibility that you have to assume. That includes being knowledgeable about the system that you're carrying, how you're carrying it, and how you handle it. If you point either a P320 or a DAO revolver at your junk and pull the trigger, you're going to blow your dick off. The difference is that the P320 trigger is a lot easier to pull either intentionally or unintentionally. So you need to be aware of that and make your decisions accordingly. I'm not scared of the trigger on the P320. What happens with that is on me as the user, and I have made a decision about the methods in which I'm comfortable carrying it and how I handle it. And I've also hammered that into my people, so they are aware of the consequences and that they have to be responsible for their own safe practices. The only thing that scares me at all is the unknown...that tiny bit of doubt that there may be something going on in there that I (and apparently nobody else) understands, which could allow a gun to discharge without trigger input. I keep watching this issue for info on those situations. I'm not scared of the gun functioning as designed. | |||
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| Peace through superior firepower  |
You can't say that to a certainty. | |||
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Member |
This echoes exactly where I'm at with the topic. A car or motorbike can also be dangerous to the user and others. Vehicles can exhibit a dangerous innate design flaw or have a spurious modification. Vehicles cab be more dangerous if used/misused in a certain way. Even good old innocent airbags, a safety feature of cars with no intended lethal purpose, have killed at least 290 people, and some of those were design flaws. In some countries, as with motor vehicles, there are training and exams as a prerequisite for gun ownership. In the UK, they banned handguns altogether after one incident in 1996. There are those in the US who would eagerly ban all guns, and they've already pushed in the thin end of that wedge with certain types and configurations of gun. If a P320 unit or model can discharge without pulling the trigger, it will be reproducible, and I continue to await that video. The longer we go without that elusive video of a post-upgrade P320 shown to discharge reproducibly under test conditions, where we can see the trigger and verify that it was not moved by something, the more confident I will be, and so far 2017 was 8 years ago. ____________________________________ My SIG: P320 Nitron Compact Other stuff: guns and equipment I use | |||
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| Savor the limelight |
I mostly agree. I certainly don't want the courts or any other branch of government involved in making these decisions. The problem for users though is two fold. First how many get to make that decision? Most of these incidents seem to involve LEOs. If the department, agency, organization, etc. says this is what we are providing you, how much choice do the users have? Second, for those that have a choice, how many have the knowledge and background to make an informed decision? Certainly the person that wrapped theirs in a towel and threw it in a gym bag fails on that point.
The pre-upgrade P320 didn't fire without trigger movement either. In fact, the upgrade was designed to prevent the trigger from moving in certain circumstances. | |||
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| Prepared for the Worst, Providing the Best |
For departments, that's a training issue. The department needs to teach their people that if you pull the trigger, the gun will fire. That includes foreign object incursion, snagging clothing, kids sticking their fingers in your holster, etc. It also needs to include informing their holster choices and ensuring that they understand the safety functions and limitations of different holster designs. It's a gun...I can't take the danger out of it. All I can do is teach you to make good decisions with it. For private persons, the burden of that responsibility is on each of us. The freedom to own and operate dangerous tools comes with the responsibility to know how to properly use them. That's why there's a manual, and why sometimes the manuals say what most of us think is stupid stuff like "don't chamber a round until you're ready to fire", because they have to cater to the lowest common denominator idiot. But they can't force the user to read or abide by the manual, either...that's a choice each person has to make for themself. I own a table saw. That thing is terrifyingly dangerous. I am incredibly paranoid and cautious when I operate it, and I don't put my fingers anywhere near that blade. If for some reason I get lax and chop my hand off with that thing, it's absolutely on me. The saw is just cutting what gets placed into it, as it's designed to do. The gun is doing the same thing. Some people are going to shoot themselves, just like some people are going to lose fingers to a table saw. It's just a fact of life. But it's up to each of us to make sure it's not us! | |||
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| Savor the limelight |
You're right, point taken. I'm in 100% agreement with you now. The table saw analogy was perfect and reason 273 I am not a pilot. Fortunately, I only knicked the bone at the tip of my finger. The ER Dr. said it counts as a broken bone. The first part of the manual had 2 pages of things not to do and I did at least 4 of them. | |||
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Down the Rabbit Hole |
Having a single action pistol without a manual/trigger safety is like running your table saw without the riving knife installed. Sure, you can do it but you greatly increase the chance of kickback. Diligentia, Vis, Celeritas "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." -- George Orwell | |||
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| Prepared for the Worst, Providing the Best |
Ouch. Yeah, I'm right there with you and I've got the scars to prove it. Thankfully not from a table saw...yet. I still do more than my share of stupid stuff. Last fall I was using a router while wearing a hoodie with really long drawstrings hanging down from the hood. My teenage son saw me and said "Dad, that's pretty dumb." Good call, kid, good call. | |||
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| Member |
P320 P365 armorer. Been to the 320 class twice. I was responsible for about 40 copies back in 2020. We saw parts failures in 8 or 9 of them and they were all fresh, factory pistols. Failures include RSA, TDSLs, out of spec sears, etc. I had one SF experienced shooter have a UD in a non light bearing holster. Bladetech owb designed for the 320. Upon armorer level disassembly, I found a non typical sear with crossed sear springs which reduced the pressure that held the striker. His striker block spring was kinked and holding the striker block in the “fire” position. He sat in his truck after a qual, the pistol grip module was torqued just right, and the pistol discharged a HST round into his truck seat. I did a quick medical assessment (tacmed/STB instructor) and secured the pistol. I found these defects afterwards and replaced the affected parts. I could repeat the failure with the old parts installed. The new parts installed I could not. I no longer do any armorer work on 320s. I still offer work on 365s and I still carry a 365 on occasion. The TDSL issue is interesting. I had a few P320s back then (I’m sure I’m nearing the 100 copy mark before I ceased working on them) that had to have TDSLs replaced because they would not disassemble without a trigger pull. I have parts on hand still and that part was manufactured in India then. I had an email chain back then with Sig and they weren’t helpful at all. It was on my department email and I lost it at retirement. I was an enormous fan of German/ West German 226s, 225s, 220s and still consider them some of the finest handguns I ever owned. The 365s I own (365, 365x, 365 Macro) are all starting to fail at high round counts. My 365x had an out of battery detonation on its first range trip. My Macro will double feed with multiple brands of factory ammo. My 365 9mm has started doing it as well. This is after extractor swaps, mag swaps, rsa swaps, etc. My 365 .380 is currently the only one I’m not having issues with. It’s disheartening once I add up all I spent over the years. I’d love to have a 226 Classic but it’s a hard pass for me with any Sig at this point. | |||
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| Member |
Proper testing with reproducible results and a control for comparison. This is very useful info, thanks.
Yes, indeed, I'm also still awaiting a video of a reproducible test under controlled conditions of an P320 model or individual unit that can fire without trigger movement. (Pre-upgrade drop-test failures were attributed to potentially trigger movement.)  ____________________________________ My SIG: P320 Nitron Compact Other stuff: guns and equipment I use | |||
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| Member |
Thanks for the well written post. I do my own maintenance and plan to do add a sear spring “peek” whenever I have the pistol detail stripped. A proper inspection the striker return spring, striker safety tab spring, sear springs only adds a minute or two to the cleaning process. I do everything except the sear spring inspection anyway when the slide is off the pistol. | |||
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| Prepared for the Worst, Providing the Best |
^^^ I do all of that as well, and for the past few months have also included checking my sear springs with a flashlight any time I have the gun apart. I also went through every gun our department has and inspected all of those as well. I found one questionable striker casting which wasn't causing any issues, but it didn't look right and Sig replaced it under warranty. Thanks for the detailed and informative post, lwt16. | |||
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His Royal Hiney |
I have a question and I'm not arguing with you; I'm trying to understand the point you're making specifically about the P320. Stripping away the lowest common denominator CYA in the owner's manual. You have guns normally carried with a round in the chambered AIWB. It seems at this point, also removing instances of foreign objects in the holster, loose clothing, or stuff that can activate the trigger, the P320 has a significant number of uncommanded discharges while holstered versus significantly zero of other models. Are you saying that as a private person, it is my responsibility that I consider the available information and if I have any sense, I should not carry a P320 AIWB or any unintended uncommanded discharges is on me? And, like I said, I'm not arguing; I don't have a position. I'm just a vested stakeholder and I'm trying to understand all points of view. "It did not really matter what we expected from life, but rather what life expected from us. We needed to stop asking about the meaning of life, and instead to think of ourselves as those who were being questioned by life – daily and hourly. Our answer must consist not in talk and meditation, but in right action and in right conduct. Life ultimately means taking the responsibility to find the right answer to its problems and to fulfill the tasks which it constantly sets for each individual." Viktor Frankl, Man's Search for Meaning, 1946. | |||
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| Member |
There is no video of an individual P320 unit or model that can be shown to discharge in any way other than by operating the trigger. If such a problem does exist, it should be reproducible, at the very least on the individual affected unit. Where is that video? I'll be waiting for it. (Obviously, we know that flawed or degraded components can lead to safety issues, and in these cases the fault can be diagnosed.) ____________________________________ My SIG: P320 Nitron Compact Other stuff: guns and equipment I use | |||
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| Peace through superior firepower |
You've said this probably a half dozen times in this thread, and that's more than enough. I don't want to see this from you any more. | |||
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| Prepared for the Worst, Providing the Best |
I'm saying that if you pull that trigger, or allow something else to pull it, and as a result blow your nuts off, that's on you. If the gun goes off on its own, without any kind of interaction with the trigger whatsoever, then that's on Sig. Unfortunately, you'd have to prove that, though, and so far nobody has been able to do so conclusively. Obviously we're talking about factory guns here...there's probably some middle ground as well for guns that have been damaged or modified by the end-user. | |||
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Member |
Ben Stoeger just added an Instagram post of a new vid (not definitive) of another AD/ND that just happened. A guy wearing a P320 Legion AIWB, adjusts his belt/pants with both hand and blew off his right testicle. I can’t post a link, but if you have instagram you’ll be able to see it. Not much info out there yet on this incident. Joe Back in Tx. | |||
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