quote:

Originally posted by trapper189:

As to the assertion, holstered P320s fire without the trigger being pulled, here’s what’s we know so far:

1. People make mistakes
2. A holstered P320 can fire if foreign objects press the trigger
3. Some holster designs allow this to happen
4. Not even one gun out of reportedly 100s of incidents has been shown by the FBI, all the internet influencers in the world, all the lawyers and their experts, etc. to do it again

These are facts.

I would argue that item 4 is not necessarily a fact. While the FBI could not get the MSP gun in question to duplicate the uncommanded discharge, the X-ray that was taken of the gun that experienced the uncommanded discharge, still in the holster and unmolested absolutely proves that the gun fired uncommanded. There was nothing else in that holster at the time the pistol fired or it would have shown up on the X-ray. So while the FBI might not have been able to make it happen again, they clearly demonstrated that it happened the first time.

quote:

the X-ray that was taken of the gun that experienced the uncommanded discharge, still in the holster and unmolested absolutely proves that the gun fired uncommanded

Proving the gun was fired, not that the trigger was not pulled.

The FBI report states when they initially examined the gun they found abrasions on the trigger guard they could not attribute to the gun being dropped at some point. They photographed these. It also states the MSP trooper had things in his hand including keys. The report says the FBI was able to get the gun in the same model holster to fire using two different length keys and that it caused scratches on the trigger guard similar to those noted initially in almost the same location.

Finding the gun in the holster doesn’t prove much. In the Northrop vs SIG case, the gun was in the holster and the gun was certainly fired, but it was proven that gun did not fire in that holster.

I inquired of ChatGPT to share UD with respect to holstered pistol or not. Above are screenshots of the results, since the app will not allow direct copy and paste to this BB.

If/when the video of the Okinawa/Marine guard incident is released, it is reportedly very convincing evidence that the gun fired in the holster, with no trigger gun manipulation from the guard or ingress of objects 5 hours into duty after loading and holstering the M18 at the start of shift.

Lawsuits that were settled have not and will not divulge details of other uncommanded discharges, so the "facts" have not been completely determined or released.

Just came upon this video. problems collected in one vid .


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iuuvu4it1Mw

Have there been any lawsuits in these incidents that were settled?

quote:

Originally posted by trapper189:
The gun, the holster, the person.

In these incidents, the gun is not variable, the holster is the next least variable, the person is the most variable.

Which is the least reliable?

As to the assertion, holstered P320s fire without the trigger being pulled, here’s what’s we know so far:

1. People make mistakes
2. A holstered P320 can fire if foreign objects press the trigger
3. Some holster designs allow this to happen
4. Not even one gun out of reportedly 100s of incidents has been shown by the FBI, all the internet influencers in the world, all the lawyers and their experts, etc. to do it again

Something can be done about 1, 2, and 3.

You left out just a few-

It is also A FACT that-

5- the 320 suffered from out of battery discharges where SIG blamed the ammo. Despite across the spectrum none of the ammo
Was the same and the ammo didn’t detonate in other platforms. SIG quietly made changes to the military guns, and then civilian guns and the problem went away.
6-SIG denied there were problems with the 320 being drop safe. All the pundits (to include me) said there was no way it could happen. It couldn’t be replicated in testing. Until it was. And it turns out SIG knew this a year prior but just planned to quietly roll out changes.
7-Safariland offers holsters for something like 50 other models. None of them are randomly going off in the holster.
8- IT ENDS TODAY and all of the other Slimey shit that SIG is doing tells me they know what’s going on but are trying to manage the bottom line instead of doing the right thing. Even the shills can’t explain this away. They just ignore it and blame everything else instead of acknowledging the 320 has really been a turd since day one.

quote:

Originally posted by trapper189:
Have there been any lawsuits in these incidents that were settled?

Yes, 2 that I know of one for 11+ mil

Links?

quote:

Originally posted by trapper189:
Links?

Google is your friend.

Manners, gentlemen

quote:

Originally posted by trapper189:

quote:

the X-ray that was taken of the gun that experienced the uncommanded discharge, still in the holster and unmolested absolutely proves that the gun fired uncommanded

Proving the gun was fired, not that the trigger was not pulled.

The FBI report states when they initially examined the gun they found abrasions on the trigger guard they could not attribute to the gun being dropped at some point. They photographed these. It also states the MSP trooper had things in his hand including keys. The report says the FBI was able to get the gun in the same model holster to fire using two different length keys and that it caused scratches on the trigger guard similar to those noted initially in almost the same location.

Finding the gun in the holster doesn’t prove much. In the Northrop vs SIG case, the gun was in the holster and the gun was certainly fired, but it was proven that gun did not fire in that holster.

The X-ray alone might not prove it, but the statements given by the trooper and other trooper witnesses prove it. There was nothing near the firearm at the time it discharged. Yes, the trooper had keys in his hand but they were not near his firearm.

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:
...

Cohen is the devil, SIG and MIM parts are instruments of the devil, my holsters walk on water, etc. None of that matters in trying to figure out if a P320 in a holster can fire without the trigger being pulled.

I own a P226, bought new, and a P239, bought used from a member here, both DAK. That’s the extent of my connection SIG the company, the employees, their marketing and other practices. I did Practicle Fundamentals once in Orlando about 18 years ago and that’s the extent of my connection with Grayguns and Bruce Gray.

In other words, I have no axe to grind, nor am I defending anyone or thing. All I want to know is why so I can evaluate the issue for myself and act accordingly. Avoiding the gun is easy, but if it’s not the gun, then do those circumstances that allowed this to happen apply to me?

https://www.reuters.com/legal/...n-firing-2025-08-01/

This just surfaced, yesterday.

A U.S. appeals court on Friday revived a lawsuit seeking to hold firearms maker Sig Sauer liable to an Immigration and Customs Enforcement officer who was injured when his P320 gun went off accidentally during a training drill.
The 3rd U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals in Philadelphia said a trial judge erred by dismissing Keith Slatowski's lawsuit after excluding testimony from two experts about whether the gun's design could cause injury.

Dominoes

quote:

Originally posted by Lt CHEG:
The X-ray alone might not prove it, but the statements given by the trooper and other trooper witnesses prove it. There was nothing near the firearm at the time it discharged. Yes, the trooper had keys in his hand but they were not near his firearm.

Just general human nature, what are the two most common things someone who screwed up will say? I usually hear “I didn’t do it”, “I don’t know”, and sometime both. I like both because if you don’t know how do you know you didn’t do it?

As far as the other witnesses, what did they really see? I seriously doubt any of them were standing around with their eyes glued to the one trooper’s holstered gun.

We do have the FBI unable, despite extensive testing, to verify what was claimed, but able to prove another potential failure mode that lines up with what the witnesses said. That’s hard to ignore for me especially when that particular failure mode has been documented, tested, and found repeatable in other cases including with other firearms.

quote:

Originally posted by Blackwater:
https://www.reuters.com/legal/...n-firing-2025-08-01/

This just surfaced, yesterday.

A U.S. appeals court on Friday revived a lawsuit seeking to hold firearms maker Sig Sauer liable to an Immigration and Customs Enforcement officer who was injured when his P320 gun went off accidentally during a training drill.
The 3rd U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals in Philadelphia said a trial judge erred by dismissing Keith Slatowski's lawsuit after excluding testimony from two experts about whether the gun's design could cause injury.

Dominoes

That’s not a case that was settled, the facts are readily available, and those facts don’t support the holstered gun fired on its own and certainly not why SIG lost.

Google is my friend, I haven’t been able to find a single case SIG settled instead of going through the entire court process as you claimed, so I asked for a link or links from you that back up what you claimed.

As Crystal Magnum vs Duke Men’s LaCrosse shows claiming something is different than proving it.

quote:

Originally posted by trapper189:

That’s not a case that was settled, the facts are readily available, and those facts don’t support the holstered gun fired on its own and certainly not why SIG lost.

Google is my friend, I haven’t been able to find a single case SIG settled instead of going through the entire court process as you claimed, so I asked for a link or links from you that back up what you claimed.

https://www.military.com/daily...tch-p320-pistol.html

https://www.cbsnews.com/philad...hams-wounded-pistol/

https://www.thetrace.org/2024/...wsuit-safety-issues/

I never said it was a case that was settled. Wow dude, calm down.
It's a case that didn't go to civil jury trial, so how could it be settled?
Read the article.

quote:

Originally posted by Blackwater:
Lawsuits that were settled have not and will not divulge details of other uncommanded discharges, so the "facts" have not been completely determined or released.

The whole P320 thing is full of people making claims and short on proof.

quote:

Originally posted by trapper189:

quote:

Originally posted by Blackwater:
Lawsuits that were settled have not and will not divulge details of other uncommanded discharges, so the "facts" have not been completely determined or released.

The whole P320 thing is full of people making claims and short on proof.

Yep, no doubt.
Fact: Sig lobbied in NH to prevent liability from future lawsuits.
https://www.nhpr.org/nh-news/2...munity-new-hampshire

That damn seems to have broke.

Another fact: civili lawsuits settled before going to court are not always a matter of public record.

My kydex holsters all secure around the trigger guard by molding the plastic tighter. Since the plastic has a curve, that narrower region must persist somewhat towards the trigger. Whereas in my fanny pack the holster is a soft pouch that surrounds the trigger area but doesn't intrude inside the trigger guard.

Is it possible in some plastic holsters that the action of holstering could bump the trigger slightly, especially if aggressively inserted?

All the excuses from Sig regarding things getting into the holster (not happening with other pistols?) is total BS. If cops/soldiers doing Coppy and Soldiery things in the course of their day makes your pistol marketed to cops and soldiers go off unexpectedly, it is not suitable for the intended purpose.