quote:

Originally posted by ACClauhs:

quote:

Originally posted by FrankMoses:
Back in 2014, and maybe into 2015, wasn’t it also available with a trigger safety à la Glock?
Fair to assume not many of them sold? At least it would’ve prevented the drop safety issues that followed soon after.

It was. We asked for them after the issues my department had with them prior to the drop safe issue. They said it wasn’t in production. They never issued them to LE or the public to my knowledge.

The P320's introduction at Shot Show in 2014 indicated trigger safeties were going to be available as an option. But once it was fully rolled out onto the market, it seems that had been dropped. (And Sig specifically used the lack of a trigger safety as a selling point initially.)

Visible here at SHOT:


Also a "tabbed safety trigger" listed as an optional safety on the left and shown on the right, in this early info sheet:


And see ~0:57 here, where a Sig rep at Range Day specifically states that it is an option aimed at those law enforcement agencies that want it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DM1cf5cb2P0

Plus ~1:00 and ~2:06 in the early P320 announcement/introduction video here, where Sig talks about "interchangeable trigger options" for tabbed or not, and how it's "available but not required for the P320 to be safe": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6hC_GOBfoiU

After reading Sigs press release, I think they hired the same marketing company as Bud Lite.

Grayguns was much more professional and accurate.

I wonder if Sig wonders “what if…..?”
And I’m glad my memory isn’t a total Swiss cheese.

Maybe they thought that the regular trigger worked in the P250 just fine?

Well, that's not apples to apples.

The P250 had a loooong and heavy (10+ pound) DAO trigger pull, compared to the much shorter and lighter (~5 pound) striker-fired P320 trigger pull.

DAO and DA/SA guns traditionally have not had trigger safeties, while most striker-fired guns do.

(But again, the P365 doesn't have a trigger safety either despite its short/light striker-fired trigger, and there's nobody busting out torches and pitchforks to go after that model...)

I just finished watching the YouTube video linked by P220 Smudge. I actually have mixed feelings about it. I was expecting it to be completely about the technical problems with the P320’s design, engineering, and manufacturing. However, only a portion of the video was dedicated to that. This portion of the video was very well-made with plenty of pictures clearly illustrating what might have gone wrong in all of these instances of the “P320 going off by itself”. I highly recommend that any individual who is technically inclined, and has an interest in the subject, watch this portion.

However, I have to say that the rest of the video was generally very trashy. It overshadowed a very solid technical argument with personal bias, cheap jabs, and at times, totally irrelevant information. For example, a large portion of the video was dedicated to SIG Sauer Inc. being an “evil company” because of the poor handling of a workplace sexual harassment incident and the illegal sale of firearms to countries in conflict. I agree that both of those things are reprehensible, but they ultimately have nothing to do with the company’s technical competence. I make no secret about my dislike for SIG Sauer Inc. and my dislike for the P320, but I think it’s possible to make a thoroughly objective argument that they are less than stellar.

^That's a good point. It should have been two separate videos.

Yeah, I forgot about all the crap about the sexual harassment suit and the workplace stuff. It wasn’t relevant to the P320, so I skimmed through it and didn’t put it to memory.

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Originally posted by P220 Smudge:
Yeah, I forgot about all the crap about the exhale harassment suit and the workplace stuff. It wasn’t relevant to the P320, so I skimmed through it and didn’t put it to memory.

That’s the problem though. The rest of the video ruins the credibility.

I’m firmly in the Glock camp, and no longer have any relationship with SIG. aside from friends that still work there. But, even they are equally suspicious of both sides of this argument. I know I am. It’s almost like both sides are trying to out douche one another.

We live in wonderful times right now with a lot of good choices.

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It’s almost like both sides are trying to out douche one another.

That sums the whole situation up pretty nicely. Meanwhile, some of us actually have to use these things and just want to be confident that they're safe and are going to work.

A video containing a detailed analysis of the P320's safety risks, for your consideration:

I just watched this new Triad video. It doesn't fall into the clickbait/cheap shots trap of the prior video posted, and sticks to the mechanics.

My semi-layman's takeaway from his analysis is that the P320 firing without the trigger being pulled is theoretically mechanically possible if every single one of the internal safety features fails, yet extremely unlikely.

But importantly, this is the same with every other single action/fully cocked striker pistol design.

They're all stacking multiple chained safety features so as to render the possibility of everything failing at once in a fully cascading system failure being extremely remote.

No firearm can be 100% safe, as all machines/mechanisms can fail. But they can make them 99.99999999999999% safe so that the 0.00000000000001% chance of a complete failure of all safety features all at once - while theoretically possible - isn't likely.

And his suggested "solution" of adding a newly designed safety lever that physically blocks the sear on the P320 is simply stacking another layer of mechanical safeties which theoretically could fail in this one-in-a-trillion full cascading failure scenario and therefore still wouldn't render it 100% failproof.

Same with a tabbed safety trigger.


So far, I'm still in the camp of the vast majority of these ADs/NDs being trigger-induced, while still accepting the possibility of one or two of them being that statistically improbable "shit happens" kind of freak incident that any pistol is potentially susceptible to. (Especially if exacerbated by something like improper maintenance/assembly like the one shown by lwt16.)

This message has been edited. Last edited by: RogueJSK,

The video is almost 2 hrs long, and over half of it was about all kind of sordid shit against SIG and nothing to do with the subject in the title. I kept fast forwarding and was shocked at how long he spent on the crap. Click bait asshole with an agenda. No credibility whatsoever.

quote:

Originally posted by RogueJSK:

My semi-layman's takeaway from his analysis is that the P320 firing without the trigger being pulled is theoretically mechanically possible if every single one of the internal safety features fails, yet extremely unlikely.

But importantly, this is the same with every other pistol design.

They're all stacking multiple chained safety features so as to render the possibility of everything failing at once in a fully cascading system failure being extremely remote.

No firearm can be 100% safe, as all machines/mechanisms can fail. But they can make them 99.99999999999999% safe so that the 0.00000000000001% chance of a complete failure of all safety features all at once - while theoretically possible - isn't likely.

That’s not completely true. It really only applies to pistols that have enough stored energy to fire. Either hammer fired, and cocked or striker fired, and cocked.

In a double action pistol, the shooter adds the energy to fire.

With cocked pistols, of whatever design, the gun has to function properly for the gun NOT to fire.

With a double action gun, everything has to function properly for the gun TO fire.

quote:

Originally posted by P220 Smudge:
I actually sat all the way through this one a few weeks back.

I'm not investing 20 seconds in any video that has some douchebag with a mask over his face, much less two hours, and if I understand correctly, that video contains things about sexual harassment issues with SIG, which many companies deal with and which has absolutely nothing- zero- to do with the issue at hand.

As far as I'm concerned, the Lone Ranger and whoever else was involved in the production of that video has an axe to grind with SIG, and that's their problem alone.

You guys need to exercise discretion regarding posting stuff like that. It doesn't belong here.

quote:

Originally posted by Sgt 127:
That’s not completely true. It really only applies to pistols that have enough stored energy to fire. Either hammer fired, and cocked or striker fired, and cocked.

Very true. That's an excellent point and important distinction. I've edited my initial post to reflect.

But while fully cocked strikers are the minority of designs, it's not something unique to the P320.

Interestingly, even the new factory Glock Performance Trigger takes the Glock from being partially cocked to a fully cocked striker. So now Glock is also relying on stacking their internal safeties.

Based on the Triad video, what's concerning about the P320 is the fact that the sear can release the striker without any movement of the trigger. It's just held up by 2 springs. That engagement is the primary safety mechanism. All the other safety mechanisms are backups in the case of a sear engagement failure. Even the manual thumb safety, as seen in the video, does not block the sear from disengaging. That just seems bad to me.

I am curious if other striker-fired pistol designs allow this too, like the legacy Glock trigger and the new Glock Performance Trigger. I do not have that knowledge.

Additionally, if the sear engagement failed without the user's knowledge, and backup safety mechanisms prevented a discharge and are "holding things together", what is the new condition of the pistol both holstered and when drawn? I'd think it's in a higher risk condition for a "uncommanded discharge".

quote:

Originally posted by Chris17404:
A video containing a detailed analysis of the P320's safety risks, for your consideration:

[FLASH_VIDEO]<iframe frameborder="0" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/fuJ0U4D5Kic" width="560"></iframe>[/FLASH_VIDEO]

That's the best video I've seen about the issue yet. He clearly addresses the design and safety features of the gun, and goes into the theoretical problems that might occur. I do agree with Rogue...the conditions required to defeat every safety mechanism at once are statistically very unlikely to occur. The design could become more susceptible with tolerance stacking, though.

One thing that I noticed in his demo early in the video is that depressing the sear moved the trigger bar forward slightly, which also partially actuated the safety lever due to the way that the safety lever notch is nested over the trigger bar. I'm curious if anyone has done any testing to determine if that's enough movement to disengage the safety block? So if the sear somehow dropped far enough to release the striker (caused by debris, sudden shock, degraded or improperly installed springs, etc), would that also actuate the safety lever enough to defeat the safety block? I suppose it would be easy enough to test with a small screwdriver and a primed case.

quote:

In a double action pistol, the shooter adds the energy to fire.

With cocked pistols, of whatever design, the gun has to function properly for the gun NOT to fire.

With a double action gun, everything has to function properly for the gun TO fire.

I agree with that, too, and I've always felt more warm fuzzies with a DA trigger than any striker design. Even a Glock is pre-cocked enough to cause a discharge if the striker were to somehow drop. But good luck trying to get departments or the market as a whole to migrate back to DA.

quote:

Originally posted by 92fstech: I agree with that, too, and I've always felt more warm fuzzies with a DA trigger than any striker design. Even a Glock is pre-cocked enough to cause a discharge if the striker were to somehow drop. But good luck trying to get departments or the market as a whole to migrate back to DA.

Summed up nicely. That’s why theres a P239 DAK or a revolver pointed at my femoral artery.

quote:

Originally posted by cee_Kamp:
-snip-
I place my thumb on top of the hammer when I re-holster a DA/SA pistol or revolver.
So far, I haven't felt the hammer move rearward while re-holstering.

And you won't. The hammer has more mechanical advantage than the trigger. I holster my P229 in the same manner.

As to the trigger "dingus", that may surely help, but I don't see it as the be-all-end-all either. The same thing that is inadvertently pushing the trigger back on the P320 may push the dingus at the same time. Not saying it would necessarily do that, but it could.

I don't and won't own a plastic striker gun. Exposed hammers are honest and forthright. Strikers are sneaky and devious.