quote:

Originally posted by SigM4:

quote:

Originally posted by RHINOWSO:

quote:

Originally posted by lbj:
A civil suit is probably forthcoming.
If a judge won't throw it out, the homeowner's son will incur legal expenses.

Thankfully some states toss those out as well as soon as its justified SYG / SD. Florida being one of them.

Better yet. Not only does OK afford civil immunity in cases of self-defense, but if if they file suit anyway, the individual being sued can recover attorney and trial fees from the party who attempted it.

Solid.

quote:

Originally posted by Ronin1069:....
Thorp also said 21-year-old Elizabeth Rodriquez was charged with three counts of first-degree murder. Rodriquez has said she drove the three men to Peters' home to burglarize it, but doesn't feel responsible in their deaths.

State law allows murder charges against a person who takes part in a crime in which another person is killed.

Somehow I don't think that possibility was on her planning sheet when she got up that morning. Seems reality is going to hit quite hard here.

quote:

Originally posted by pedropcola:
I sure would like a can on mine though if I'm shooting it in a hallway. And yes, deaf and alive is the better alternative.

I think an AR pistol with a suppressor is a very good choice. Especially when the thugs start showing up in groups like in this instance.

quote:

Originally posted by parabellum:
Four feet of rifle and silencer you're holding in front of you, in a narrow hallway. No thank you.

That's why I like my 7.5" AR "pistol" overall length of about 25-26", with the added benefit of having the potential to light the bad guys on fire with the muzzle flash

It has a light, and I DO keep a round chambered with the selector on "Safe". 30 round mag with Hornady "Zombie Max" ammo. I also keep my MSA Sordin electronic muffs in the corner, whether I would actually put them on in the heat of the moment is hard to say, but I have the option and they certainly do amplify those bumps in the night.

Really hoping that suppressors come off the NFA so I can put a muffler on it.


As to the house clearing issue, 9 times out of 10 when we send cops out, the cops are expecting the homeowner to come open the door to let them in.

Hasn't gotten much comment in this thread, but when the 911 operator was telling him to disarm and come out, that is what we usually do as well and I suspect is the norm for most agencies.

Only in those instances where there is no doubt about a bad guy on-premise along with an obvious forced entry will they generally go in. As in this case, the 911 operator was going down that road when the arriving officers saw bodies and forced entry, confirming a "real" bad situation and countermanded telling him to sit tight.


In most cases, the caller will be expected to come to the door even if the door is unlocked. Especially in this day and age where they need to be concerned about potential for ambush.

It is a "Catch 22", they will want you to disarm once they are on scene (and possibly before), yet they expect you to come through the house unarmed (with a potentially armed intruder inside) to open the door so they can come in and look for the bad guy.


I expect in most instances, me and my dog will clear the house prior to their arrival. It isn't a big house and I have cameras that will let me see most areas so as not to really be "blindly" checking any area. Alarm will tell me what the entry point is, cameras and sound will give me an idea of what I am dealing with.

This whole thing SHOULD be quite simple.

If you are in the business of committing violent felonies like home invasion, you need to accept the risk you might meet an armed homeowner who takes exception to you violating their personal space.

We expect police officers to accept they might be killed in the line of duty. We expect soldiers to accept they may die for their country. We accept fire fighters may die doing their job. There are countless other honerable professions that have significant risks that the basic performance of duties could result in significant injury or death...

Being a criminal is no different....

If you decide to take that route... that is ON YOU!

I lack sympathy.

quote:

If you are in the business of committing violent felonies like home invasion, you need to accept the risk you might meet an armed homeowner who takes exception to you violating their personal space.

Yup, some might even call it a "deterrent"....to a rational human. Perhaps the folks considering this line of work would be wise to choose a different career path.

"No charges filed" is simply theater. There wasn't a snowball's chance in Hell that that guy was going to be charged with anything, not even with violating a noise ordinance.

Who doesn't know this? There was not one single speck of a chance of it happening. Why don't they announce that the sun will rise tomorrow? This information would be equally as useless as "no charges" in this instance.

quote:

Originally posted by parabellum:
"No charges filed" is simply theater. There wasn't a snowball's chance in Hell that that guy was going to be charged with anything, not even with violating a noise ordinance.

Who doesn't know this? There was not one single speck of a chance of it happening. Why don't they announce that the sun will rise tomorrow? This information would be equally as useless as "no charges" in this instance.

Well there had to be a official announcement to dot the i and cross the t but if you take a routine official announcement and report it as unexpected news then you might inflame certain parts of your viewership and perhaps stir up some more news to Spin report.

As for "Who doesn't know this?" The dumb is strong in many out there. I think you are giving people way too much credit.

quote:

Originally posted by RHINOWSO:

quote:

Originally posted by SigM4:

quote:

Originally posted by RHINOWSO:

quote:

Originally posted by lbj:
A civil suit is probably forthcoming.
If a judge won't throw it out, the homeowner's son will incur legal expenses.

Thankfully some states toss those out as well as soon as its justified SYG / SD. Florida being one of them.

Better yet. Not only does OK afford civil immunity in cases of self-defense, but if if they file suit anyway, the individual being sued can recover attorney and trial fees from the party who attempted it.

Solid.

There is the case where parents sued a gun maker over Aurora theater shooting. They were the front for the Brady Foundation. After all the lawyer fees and such, the case was dismissed and the pair were ordered to pay $203,000.
They, of course, claim that the bill would bankrupt them. That the Brady Foundation wouldn't help them financially. "(T)hat it is unconstitutional to financially punish people for bringing a lawsuit"
This even though that's what they wanted for the companies they sued.


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/...wsuit_b_8197804.html

http://blogs.reuters.com/aliso...ay-their-legal-fees/

quote:

Originally posted by Icabod:

quote:

Originally posted by RHINOWSO:

quote:

Originally posted by SigM4:

quote:

Originally posted by RHINOWSO:

quote:

Originally posted by lbj:
A civil suit is probably forthcoming.
If a judge won't throw it out, the homeowner's son will incur legal expenses.

Thankfully some states toss those out as well as soon as its justified SYG / SD. Florida being one of them.

Better yet. Not only does OK afford civil immunity in cases of self-defense, but if if they file suit anyway, the individual being sued can recover attorney and trial fees from the party who attempted it.

Solid.

There is the case where parents sued a gun maker over Aurora theater shooting. They were the front for the Brady Foundation. After all the lawyer fees and such, the case was dismissed and the pair were ordered to pay $203,000.
They, of course, claim that the bill would bankrupt them. That the Brady Foundation wouldn't help them financially. "(T)hat it is unconstitutional to financially punish people for bringing a lawsuit"
This even though that's what they wanted for the companies they sued.


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/...wsuit_b_8197804.html

http://blogs.reuters.com/aliso...ay-their-legal-fees/

Two very different things.

quote:

Originally posted by sigfreund:
Well, I’ll circle back to my comments about what we imagine might happen in various incidents.

I can’t speak for every house in America, but in mine there are some pretty restricted spaces even when moving from room to room. Not every encounter is likely to occur across a living room or down a hallway. Although it would be difficult (and really unnecessary) to describe exactly the sorts of scenarios that could reasonably involve an attacker’s suddenly closing with the defender and grappling with him and without the defender being able to engage him with a long gun, they are certainly in the realm of reasonable possibility. Once the attacker has gotten to that point a long gun is unlikely to be of much use.*

Thanks for the explanation. I also subscribe to Para's preference in that my primary home defense weapons are all handguns. I view AR's more as a defense weapon in SHTF/civil unrest situations.

When I clear the house, the Glock is held in right hand, touching my side, muzzle down at around 25 degree below the X axis so to speak. Flashlight is extended in left hand, away from my body and I try to keep it off the center line of my head and body. I also use left hand to open doors.

So basically any murder that occurs during the commission of a crime is considered first degree. Okay, that makes sense. Generally, here that second paragraph would be second degree murder.

quote:

Originally posted by enidpd804:

quote:

Originally posted by BBMW:
Glad to see the kid will not face charges.

I'm a little surprised that they're going after the driver for first degree murder. I don't know OK law, but I thought that usually implied the murder was premeditated. I would think it would be something like what around here is second degree murder (depraved indifference.)

Oklahoma Statutes Citationized
Title 21. Crimes and Punishments
Chapter 24 - Homicide
Murder
Section 701.7 - Murder in the First Degree
Cite as: O.S. §, __ __



A. A person commits murder in the first degree when that person unlawfully and with malice aforethought causes the death of another human being. Malice is that deliberate intention unlawfully to take away the life of a human being, which is manifested by external circumstances capable of proof.

B. A person also commits the crime of murder in the first degree, regardless of malice, when that person or any other person takes the life of a human being during, or if the death of a human being results from, the commission or attempted commission of murder of another person, shooting or discharge of a firearm or crossbow with intent to kill, intentional discharge of a firearm or other deadly weapon into any dwelling or building as provided in Section 1289.17A of this title, forcible rape, robbery with a dangerous weapon, kidnapping, escape from lawful custody, eluding an officer, first degree burglary, first degree arson, unlawful distributing or dispensing of controlled dangerous substances or synthetic controlled substances, trafficking in illegal drugs, or manufacturing or attempting to manufacture a controlled dangerous substance.

It's pretty common here to charge Murder 1 here in this circumstance.

In Florida for robberies and crimes of that nature....it's minimum mandatory, robbery 10 years, robbery with a weapon (not used) 20 years in prison, if the weapon is fired or used, life in prison.