quote:

Originally posted by zipriderson:
The flu is not as contagious as this one.

If everyone was tested for the flu, would we find that to be the case? Your assumption is that the data is correct which we know it isn't.

If the media told you to take the precaution of chopping off your dick so you don't rape anyone, would you?

7 Billion plus people on this planet and you want us to stop the world for a statistically equal to zero event.....that's asinine.

quote:

Fear is driving your ship and it's clear to most anyone outside your bubble.

We carry guns as a precaution, right? The likelihood of needing one is very low. But there is a real threat out there, however little the chances of it appearing.

How is that not fear, but protecting my face and distancing myself against a threat we know is out there is?

It is possibly because of where these two things fall in the political spectrum?

quote:

7 Billion plus people on this planet and you want us to stop the world for a statistically equal to zero event.....that's asinine.

Where did I say anything about stopping the world?

As I said before, you guys want to lump me into a group because I choose to cover my face.

Really - find the post where I said anything about shutting down.

quote:

Originally posted by zipriderson:
We carry guns as a precaution, right? The likelihood of needing one is very low. But there is a real threat out there, however little the chances of it appearing.

How is that not fear, but protecting my face and distancing myself against a threat we know is out there is?

Good grief.

Firearms serve as protection aginst the actions of other humans, not a virus, which can't think and is merely an algorithm. Human beings have free will and some of them use that free will to seek out and prey upon other humans. Predators vs landmines- and in this case, landmines about which the only things you know is what the triumvirate I mentioned above wants you to believe. Whereas, you yourself know full well that every day in this country- every day- people are robbed/shot/raped/murdered etc. Apples and oranges.

Is coronavirus gonna kick in your front door at three in the morning? Is it going to assault you in a parking lot when you are opening the door to your car?

quote:

Originally posted by YooperSigs:
Supposedly, the Evil Queen is going to relax restrictions here in the UP during a presser this afternoon.
Wow... Thanks. I hope our businesses survive. Our tourism events damn sure havent.

A few interesting points.

She is allowing businesses to open in two regions, however her statewide stay at home except for absolutely essential travel orders are still in effect. How does that work? Businesses are open, but if it's not essential to sustain life you can't go.

In 'allowing' businesses to open, she clearly shows no trust in the owners and CEOs to put plans in place to keep workers safe. She apparently believes that without her intervention, business owners will just kick the doors open and tell everybody to get back to work. So she has imposed super strict rules on how this is all supposed to happen. My company did this weeks ago in preparation for the reopening, but thank you so much for treating us like uneducated children.

quote:

Those who push back against this utter insanity are my allies. Those who don't push back- well, as they say, you're either part of the solution or part of the problem.

You don't know shit about me. All you know is that I cover my face and distance in certain situations.

You don't know how else I've pushed back on this nonsense.

You don't know if I've protested.

You don't know if I've supported local businesses that have opened.

You don't know if I've written and called my local officials.

You don't know the conversations I've had with family and friends.

You don't know my point of view on any of this, except the one point I've made today.

You don't know how against I am of forced closures, other mandates, cell phone tracking, etc.

You don't know shit about me. You want to take a few choices I've made and make a judgment.

All you've done is lumped me into a group - since I take certain measures, I am part of the problem.

You know the world is not black and white.

quote:

Originally posted by Rightwire:
...but thank you so much for treating us like uneducated children.

It's not a matter of treating anyone like uneducated children. It's a matter of correlating contributions and to her campaign fund and open statements of political support to her designating specific buisnesses as "essential" so they can make money while no one else can.

quote:

Originally posted by zipriderson:
You don't know shit about me.

Sorry, that's just not true. You have been a member here for almost sixteen years. You have almost 6000 posts, many or most of which I have read, and you and I have been 'round and 'round before. Don't act like you're someone we don't know, merely because at this moment it serves your purposes.

A decade from now we will remember this hysteria the way we remember Y2K. The fear is real and causes a degradation in rational thought.

A gun is a proven vaccine against a violent threat. Wearing a mask and social distancing have not proven to accomplish a damn thing against this virus. But you have been told that and so you believe. If you think back to the early days when this whole fiasco started and to where we are now it should be obvious to you if you are following along.

This is now 80% political and 20% virus at the best. I have never put a mask on and never will, I will continue to touch my face as I please. I will not social distance I will leave that up to other people. My freedom does not end where other people's fear begins. Do what you want just leave me the hell out of it.

quote:

Originally posted by lastmanstanding:
I will continue to touch my face as I please.

Regarding the hysteria, what I see in people is this thought process: "I cannot see this virus the government is telling me is deadly and spreading like wildfire. Therefore, I must assume that the virus (which will kill me if I contract it- no chance of survival or being completely asymptomatic) is everywhere."

Consequently, people are paralyzed from moving about, due to the deadly bugs which they have been programmed to believe are on every surface on the planet and on every other human except for their family.

It is very unlikely that I will forget having my freedom and rights trampled on and being placed on house arrest. And I damn sure will remember it come election time.

quote:

Originally posted by parabellum:

quote:

Originally posted by zipriderson:
You don't know shit about me.

Sorry, that's just not true. You have been a member here for almost sixteen years. You have almost 6000 posts, many or most of which I have read, and you and I have been 'round and 'round before. Don't act like you're someone we don't know, merely because at this moment it serves your purposes.

Then you should know I'm not part of the problem.

https://fee.org/articles/why-s...ZcIhRnnc0bFmJ0aHuNVM



Why Sweden’s COVID-19 Strategy Is Quietly Becoming the World’s Strategy

Around the world, nations are starting to emulate Sweden's COVID-19 strategy. Here's why.



Sweden’s unique approach to the COVID-19 pandemic has been drawing a great deal of scrutiny for weeks, including both admiration and criticism.

The Swedes, unlike most other nations, have eschewed the hardline approach that has led to mass economic shutdowns and skyrocketing unemployment. Restaurants, bars, public pools, libraries and most schools remain open. While the nation’s “laissez-faire” approach has drawn rebuke from some quarters, it is also beginning to draw praise.

Officials at the World Health Organization (WHO), we pointed out April 30, stated that Sweden’s approach “represents a model” to nations seeking to end the lockdowns that have caused widespread economic disruption and placed the global economy at risk.

In a sense, Sweden has become a coronavirus touchstone. Critics point out that Sweden’s per capita COVID-19 death rate is higher than several of its Scandanivan neighbors—Finland, Denmark, and Norway. Proponents point out that Sweden’s death rate is lower than many of its European neighbors—Belgium, France, the United Kingdom, Spain, and Italy—who initiated strict lockdowns. Proponents also point out that Sweden has “flattened the curve,” noting that the nation of 10 million has not seen its hospitals overrun or experienced medical equipment shortages.

The debate over Sweden will no doubt continue. However, it’s important to remember that actions speak louder than words. So what are nations actually doing? As scholars observed in a Foreign Affairs article published Tuesday, nations around the world are quietly embracing Sweden’s strategy.

“Whether or not they have openly embraced the Swedish approach, many other countries are now trying to emulate aspects of it. Both Denmark and Finland have reopened schools for young children,” wrote Professors Nils Karlson, Charlotta Stern, and Daniel B. Klein. “Germany is allowing small shops to reopen. Italy will soon reopen parks, and France has a plan to allow some nonessential businesses to reopen, including farmers’ markets and small museums, as well as schools and daycare centers.”

A recent Kaiser Family Foundation report shows US states are moving in a similar direction. The vast majority of states are easing social distancing measures to various degrees (see graph below; blue states are easing measures). “Non-essential” businesses are being allowed to reopen. Stay-at-home orders are being eased or rescinded. In-person dining is returning. Bans on large gatherings are being lifted.

This does not mean all restrictions will suddenly be lifted; most establishments will almost certainly have capacity limits. Nor does it mean there is no additional work ahead. States transitioning from lockdown orders will no doubt have plenty of work to keep them busy—enhanced contact tracing efforts, expanded testing, and increased efforts to protect at-risk populations.

But this has largely been the Swedish model from the very beginning. The reason others are finally embracing it, I suspect, is two-fold.

First, the initial goal of “flattening the curve” has been realized. The lockdowns, it’s important to remember, were never intended as a permanent measure. It was a first step of a larger plan, one designed to prevent hospitals from being overwhelmed.

“Most of the models suggest that ‘flattening the curve’ makes sense in phase one so you don’t overrun medical systems, but you’ve got to have a phase two,” says David L. Katz, an American physician and former director of the Yale-Griffin Prevention Research Center. “If you don’t transition to a phase two, whenever you release the clamps the virus is out in the world waiting for you, everyone is vulnerable, and that big peak in cases, and that big peak in deaths that you’re trying to avoid, really just happens at a later date.”

The problem, of course, is that somehow we became stuck in phase one. But as Katz points out, in such a case you don’t really prevent deaths; you just change the dates.

The Swedish physician Johan Giesecke recently offered a similar take in The Lancet.

“It has become clear that a hard lockdown does not protect old and frail people living in care homes—a population the lockdown was designed to protect,” Giesecke wrote. “Measures to flatten the curve might have an effect, but a lockdown only pushes the severe cases into the future—it will not prevent them.”

The wildcard, of course, has always been the hope that a vaccine or new miracle drugs might be quickly developed. That remains a possibility, but it’s a highly unlikely one, as NIAID​ Director Anthony Fauci admits.

Which brings me to the second reason I think nations are adopting Sweden’s approach. Nations are essentially left with a simple choice: maintain lockdowns and hope a vaccine (or a “cure,” as Los Angeles Mayor Eric Garceitti puts it) is developed or begin to ease restrictions.

Nations are slowly embracing the latter, and it’s not hard to see why.

The social and economic costs of these lockdowns are clear—and staggering: tens of millions of jobs suddenly gone, Great Depression-level unemployment, and nations around the world staggering into recessions. (The psychological toll of the shutdowns is harder to quantify, but media reports show suicide prevention hotlines are seeing record surges.)

While there is little debate about the social and economic costs of the lockdowns, their benefits are less clear, evidenced by Sweden and other states that have eased lockdowns and not seen an explosion in deaths. In fact, several scholars have argued that data suggest lockdowns haven’t worked at all.

“We don’t need to have a national debate about whether the economic costs of lockdowns outweigh their public health benefits, because lockdowns do not provide public health benefits,” wrote economist Lyman Stone, an adjunct fellow at the American Enterprise Institute, in a widely read Public Discourse article.

Although Stone is not the only scholar to make such a claim, it’s fair to see this position as an outlier. But the degree to which the lockdowns were or were not beneficial is a subject for another day. What matters is that presently nations and states are acting, not waiting around in the hope that someone develops a vaccine or “cure” (which typically take years to develop).

To glean true preferences one doesn’t listen to what someone says. One watches what they do. Behavior is what reveals true human preferences, economists point out, not their words.

“Action is a real thing. What counts is a man’s total behavior, and not his talk about planned but not realized acts,” the famed economist Ludwig von Mises observed in Human Action. “Neither is value in words and doctrines. It is reflected in human conduct. It is not what a man or groups of men say about value that counts, but how they act.”

And what are people doing?

Right now, the world is quietly moving toward Sweden’s laissez-faire approach. For those weary of state-enforced economic lockdowns that have caused vast economic harm and resulted in unprecedented violations of civil liberties, that’s an encouraging sign.



.

quote:

Originally posted by zipriderson:
Then you should know I'm not part of the problem.

It seems I touched a nerve.

I just want to thank drtenb330 for his post (on page 500). Thanks for your hard work to help your patients.

quote:

Originally posted by parabellum:

quote:

Originally posted by zipriderson:
Then you should know I'm not part of the problem.

It seems I touched a nerve.

Look, I don't like being labelled and being lumped into a group of people, with whose ideas on this crisis I do not agree with.

So yes, I'm annoyed when I'm called brainwashed, or considered part of a group who are in favor of mandated shutdowns, government imposed rules, etc. I never said anything about those things.

But I realize this is typical forum stuff. Not this forum specifically - just the nature of how people react online.

Yeah, that's what it is. Internet stuff. Sure.

quote:

Originally posted by 2Adefender:
I just want to thank drtenb330 for his post (on page 500). Thanks for your hard work to help your patients.

+1. Thanks to all working in those fields during this page of history; so much hype and hysteria about this virus but as the Dr. put it there are a lot of unknowns with it. Many researchers and techs will be working on this invader for a long time to come.

1) COVID-19 was in Washington State for at least 6 weeks before the first death at a nursing home. Jan 15th to the first death March 1st. There was no health crisis until we started to look for it. We didn't know it was here despite increased concern.

2) If we weren't actively looking for it in the general population- Would We Even Know It's Here?

3) Washington State has 7,600,000 residents and about 1000 have died from covid-19 since March 1st-About 11 weeks. About 10,000 other people have died from the top 10 normal things.

4) If it was as bad as claimed- Grocery store workers etc. would be dropping like flies. 1 guy 70 years old, who worked in a grocery store 3 days a month died from this a while ago and the media made a big deal about it. That's 1.

These are things I've considered trying to make sense of this- It doesn't make any sense.