quote:

Originally posted by trapper189:
Your straw man arguements are old.

If you're going to call people out for logical fallacies, you might want to make certain they're applicable. His argument may have been inflammatory, but it certainly was no straw man. Some here have based their position on the "fact" that younger people with no complicating morbidities will "get it and get over it."

The article to which Sunset_Va referred suggests Covid-19 does lasting damage to the lungs in some patients. If true: Now we have somebody that will have a comorbidity they didn't have before. Now they're in the higher-risk pool for the next thing to come around.

quote:

Originally posted by ensigmatic:

For those still nay-sayers: Look at Italy's curve and our curve. Nearly parallel. Then look at the disaster Italy's healthcare system has become.

Your straw man arguments are old as well.

As for sigfreund's statement, not a single person here has made the claim that only old people and folks with other issues need to worry about this.

There are overreactions just about everywhere but the one that isn't and has me concerned is the shortage of protective gear in our hospitals. There's a story this morning about hospitals being forced to reuse medical masks in particular because of the shortage. Like drugs and other things, we allowed ourselves to become too dependent on China as the source and now our hospitals are having to resort to decontamination and reuse. From the article:

With a shortage of medical masks across the country, some hospitals are now using equipment with ultraviolet light to decontaminate masks so they can be reused.

Nevada-based medical equipment company TMG Health Technologies received hundreds of orders from hospitals around the country in the past week for its Rapid Decontamination Systems, portable ultraviolet light machines used to disinfect medical instruments like stethoscopes in 30 seconds by killing viruses and bacteria on surfaces. Now, they’re being increasingly used to disinfect N95 masks amid the shortage of the masks and other personal protective equipment.

The machines, which fit up to eight masks, use UVC rays at specific wavelengths, which can kill viruses by destroying the molecular bonds that fuse DNA strands together.

“There is a limitation on the number of times it [the N95 mask] should be decontaminated simply because every time you decontaminate the mask, it impacts the filtration capacity," Green explained.

Doctors typically use a new N95 mask -- tight-fitting face-covers that filter out particles that could carry the coronavirus and other germs -- to treat each patient. The U.S. Food and Drug Administration recommends wearing surgical masks, including the N95 mask once. However, as medical professionals struggle with shrinking supplies of personal protective equipment, doctors say using ultraviolet light to kill viruses as a decontamination method is an option.

“It [ultraviolet light] appears to damage the shell of the virus in a way that prevents it from infecting human cells,” Dr. Bob Morris, a Seattle-based environmental epidemiologist who has taught at Harvard University School of Public Health said. “We’re in desperate times, and desperate times call for desperate measures. If you do it right, you can reduce the amount of virus that’s active on that piece of gear.”

article continues...

https://www.foxbusiness.com/he...-decontaminate-reuse

I'm getting first-hand accounts of the shortage from the hospitals where my wife (a nurse) and daughter (a doctor) work. They're using a single mask for an entire shift in most cases and then salvaging it for reuse later because there's such a shortage. They and the hospitals are looking the possibility of fabricating "homemade" masks if necessary. Fortunately, 3M and others are supposedly ramping up production, and Lowe's and others are donating masks that will be distributed to some hospitals so I'm hoping it won't come to that.

As for the "stimulus bill," Pelosi and Company are trying to rob the bank and steal the kitchen sink too with the amount of pork and idiocy they're stuffing into it. The Republicans better hold their ground and stick to things related to the virus if they decide to pass anything at all.

Dr Birx:

The NY City Metro area – parts of NJ, NY City, parts of Long Island – have an attack rate of close to one in a thousand. This is five times what the other areas are seeing.

28% of the submitted specimens from this area are positive. It is less than 8% in the rest of the country.

All of the people in this area need to social distance and self isolate

quote:

Originally posted by sdy:
Dr Birx:

The NY City Metro area – parts of NJ, NY City, parts of Long Island – have an attack rate of close to one in a thousand. This is five times what the other areas are seeing.

28% of the submitted specimens from this area are positive. It is less than 8% in the rest of the country.

All of the people in this area need to social distance and self isolate

Yes, but probably fairly difficult in such a densely populated area.

quote:

Originally posted by WaterburyBob:

quote:

Originally posted by sdy:
Dr Birx:

The NY City Metro area – parts of NJ, NY City, parts of Long Island – have an attack rate of close to one in a thousand. This is five times what the other areas are seeing.

28% of the submitted specimens from this area are positive. It is less than 8% in the rest of the country.

All of the people in this area need to social distance and self isolate

Yes, but probably fairly difficult in such a densely populated area.

Crowded public transportation is the only way to get around for the vast majority of Newe Yorkers,

quote:

Originally posted by trapper189:

quote:

Originally posted by ensigmatic:
For those still nay-sayers: Look at Italy's curve and our curve. Nearly parallel. Then look at the disaster Italy's healthcare system has become.

Your straw man arguments are old as well.

You really don't understand what a "straw man argument" is, do you? Hint: It's not simply an argument with which you disagree.

In brief: A straw man argument is arguing a point that has not been made, often an extreme position that hasn't been taken by ones opponent, in an effort to defeat their position.

Many here have argued "We're not Italy" to support their position that our various governments' responses to this pandemic are excessive and unnecessary. Therefor, presenting the counter-argument that the exponential curve of our infection rate tracks Italy's is clearly not a straw man.

quote:

Originally posted by trapper189:
As for sigfreund's statement, not a single person here has made the claim that only old people and folks with other issues need to worry about this.

Wow! You need to read more carefully. A lot more carefully. That has been one of the other primary arguments made.

quote:

Originally posted by smithnsig:
Crowded public transportation is the only way to get around for the vast majority of Newe Yorkers,

When I was in college, my circle of friends and acquaintances included a number of people who grew up in NYC.

Every single person I knew who WASN'T from NYC had a driver's license.

NONE of the people I knew who grew up in NYC had a driver's license.

quote:

Originally posted by ensigmatic:
His argument may have been inflammatory, but it certainly was no straw man.

Thank you. It’s good to see that I’m not the only one who knows what a straw man argument is. I thought of trying to find that “You keep using that word …” meme, but decided it would be a waste of time.

quote:

Originally posted by SigSentry:

quote:

Originally posted by PASig:
I’m now almost certain I had this virus back in mid-December and recovered and didn’t even realize it. I got what I thought was just a bad cold with an awful, awful sore throat and a hacking cough that would not go away. A sore throat for me lasts normally 1-2 days. This lasted 3 full weeks along with the cough, I was coughing so hard and so much I was having to sleep elsewhere to stop waking my wife. My chest hurt for weeks after I finally got over it. Initially went to my doctor after a week, they tested for strep, it was negative and told me it’s “just a cold, suck it up”. After another 10 days of this horrible sore throat and hacking cough, I went to the urgent care and they again tested for strep, negative, flu , negative and took chest x-rays. The doctor I saw told me “it’s a good thing you came in when you did, you were on your way to getting pneumonia” They gave me some heavy duty cough meds and something else and finally after a good 3 weeks I felt better. It was horrible. Never had a cough like that in my life.

sorry about your illness. I was down for the week of 3/8. I chaulked it up to a rhinovirus (coronavirus). kept it out of my lungs which is a feat for me.
I am thinking there are a lot of folks at home suffering from Covd-19 or any other illness.

And that is the point. We should be suffering in isolation if possible unless it progresses to shortness of breath/cardiac issues.

Serology studies will be interesting to see who has antibodies but never needed hospital assistance. This will be part of the ramping up of the touchy part of the economy.

Should shortly be generally available a finger-stick Ab test. Mount Sinai already has a protocol being used in NYC; we most likely will see this as part of the battery of routine tests for pulmonary admissions in the future (just my prediction). I imagine it will show us a - very - broad exposure of the general population, and again it's not unlikely we'll see a "flu/COVID-19" season in the not-so-distant future. Life will never be the pre SARS-CoV-2 "normal," just as it wasn't - or isn't - post-9/11.

quote:

Originally posted by ensigmatic:

quote:

Originally posted by trapper189:
As for sigfreund's statement, not a single person here has made the claim that only old people and folks with other issues need to worry about this.

Wow! You need to read more carefully. A lot more carefully. That has been one of the other primary arguments made.

No, my comprehension is just fine, thank you. You and sigfreund seem intent on arguing against arguements that have not been made. You are being obtuse, dishonest, or __________ (fill in the blank) if you believe "not a single person here has made the claim that only old people and folks with other issues need to worry about this" is one of the primary arguments that have been made. You've convienently left out the other part of the argument which is that the cure isn't worth the price being paid.

And I mean this with all respect. You're both really sharp people that I've learned a lot from. I really don't want to be on the other side of the fence from you.

quote:

Originally posted by PASig:
I’m now almost certain I had this virus back in mid-December and recovered and didn’t even realize it. I got what I thought was just a bad cold with an awful, awful sore throat and a hacking cough that would not go away. A sore throat for me lasts normally 1-2 days. This lasted 3 full weeks along with the cough, I was coughing so hard and so much I was having to sleep elsewhere to stop waking my wife. My chest hurt for weeks after I finally got over it. Initially went to my doctor after a week, they tested for strep, it was negative and told me it’s “just a cold, suck it up”. After another 10 days of this horrible sore throat and hacking cough, I went to the urgent care and they again tested for strep, negative, flu , negative and took chest x-rays. The doctor I saw told me “it’s a good thing you came in when you did, you were on your way to getting pneumonia” They gave me some heavy duty cough meds and something else and finally after a good 3 weeks I felt better. It was horrible. Never had a cough like that in my life.

Same. I was sick for a few weeks. I was coughing so hard I'd cough myself awake from a deep sleep. I've never coughed like that in my life nor with any cold/flu in my life. Totally anecdotal. It was either a new flu strain I have never had, or this bs. I worked from home the entire time and wore a mask in the entire time I was in public.

Why I decided to start wearing a mask at the grocery store—and how many others are now?

I have had a persistent cough for years that has been checked many times and not found to be a symptom of anything serious. I believe it’s probably due to the scarring from many bouts of pneumonia I’ve had, not to mention having breathed other people’s smoke for 40 some years. I do, however, believe it demonstrates that I need to try to avoid catching something that will damage my lungs further. And then there’s my wife who also has reasons to avoid catching this, along with the fact that we live at an altitude where we really need all the lung function we can get.

I’m not afraid of dying of COVID-19 because there are worse ways to go, but despite the fact that both I and my wife are old enough for the “No longer useful” category, it would be an inconvenience to others, especially now. What I especially don’t want myself is to develop a problem that would require me to be on oxygen all the time as is true of many of the local residents, or, even worse, would require a move to a lower elevation.

All that led me to finally start wearing an N95 mask and a pair of my shooting glasses* to the grocery store, which is about the only place left in town where more than a few people congregate. As a bit of unintended irony, though, a couple of days ago our local more-or-less supermarket established a policy that from 7 to 9 A.M. shopping would be limited to “seniors,” the pregnant, and other people with special vulnerabilities. Needing a couple of perishables this morning, I arrived there about 7:30, and guess what? The place was packed with old people, probably because they thought that products would be more plentiful than has been normal for the past couple of weeks. Only a few of us were wearing masks, but it will be interesting to see if that changes in the future.

* Know why the glasses?

quote:

Originally posted by Prefontaine:
Same. I was sick for a few weeks. I was coughing so hard I'd cough myself awake from a deep sleep. I've never coughed like that in my life nor with any cold/flu in my life. Totally anecdotal. It was either a new flu strain I have never had, or this bs. I worked from home the entire time and wore a mask in the entire time I was in public.

When this first went down my wife told me about 3 people she works with who were each out for several weeks with the same thing in December. Flu/strep negative and these were younger people but it still took them weeks to get over it.

I know it's anecdotal but it wouldn't surprise me at all if this thing has been making the rounds for a while now.

quote:

Originally posted by PASig:
I’m now almost certain I had this virus back in mid-December and recovered and didn’t even realize it. I got what I thought was just a bad cold with an awful, awful sore throat and a hacking cough that would not go away. A sore throat for me lasts normally 1-2 days. This lasted 3 full weeks along with the cough, I was coughing so hard and so much I was having to sleep elsewhere to stop waking my wife. My chest hurt for weeks after I finally got over it. Initially went to my doctor after a week, they tested for strep, it was negative and told me it’s “just a cold, suck it up”. After another 10 days of this horrible sore throat and hacking cough, I went to the urgent care and they again tested for strep, negative, flu , negative and took chest x-rays. The doctor I saw told me “it’s a good thing you came in when you did, you were on your way to getting pneumonia” They gave me some heavy duty cough meds and something else and finally after a good 3 weeks I felt better. It was horrible. Never had a cough like that in my life.

Same here; late last year. I cannot remember coughing that bad.

quote:

Originally posted by 229DAK:

quote:

Originally posted by PASig:
I’m now almost certain I had this virus back in mid-December and recovered and didn’t even realize it. I got what I thought was just a bad cold with an awful, awful sore throat and a hacking cough that would not go away. A sore throat for me lasts normally 1-2 days. This lasted 3 full weeks along with the cough, I was coughing so hard and so much I was having to sleep elsewhere to stop waking my wife. My chest hurt for weeks after I finally got over it. Initially went to my doctor after a week, they tested for strep, it was negative and told me it’s “just a cold, suck it up”. After another 10 days of this horrible sore throat and hacking cough, I went to the urgent care and they again tested for strep, negative, flu , negative and took chest x-rays. The doctor I saw told me “it’s a good thing you came in when you did, you were on your way to getting pneumonia” They gave me some heavy duty cough meds and something else and finally after a good 3 weeks I felt better. It was horrible. Never had a cough like that in my life.

Same here; late last year. I cannot remember coughing that bad.

Same here, around Christmas 2019, cough with terrible mucus buildup. Lasted 2 weeks, I stayed away from family then as much as possible. No fever or sore throat in my case.

I thought to myself, this is the first chest cold I've had in my memory. However, I didn't go to any doctor. The cough finally went away, although, the mucus buildup was terrible for the next month.

I am glad SF members brought this up, most of these cases occured last December.

SigFreund, I'm going to start wearing an N95 mask to stores. Unlike (unretired) health care workers who are likely to be exposed to very sick patients, I intend to reuse the mask until someone coughs on me.
I take my own disinfectant wipes into the store in a plastic bag to wipe the cart handle. Use hand sanitizer when I get back to the car; wash hands after handling store products. We're starting to segregate the newly-bought store products for a couple of days.
My wife and I are not worried about ourselves; it's our pregnant daughter who needs us healthy.

quote:

Originally posted by sjtill:
I intend to reuse the mask until someone coughs on me.

That’s my plan as well. I have a total of five N95 and N100 masks that I’ve had since before the “panic,” but I obviously cannot wear each one once and throw it away. I recognize that practice is less than ideal, but it is better than no mask. And when E.R. physicians in certain places are wearing the same mask all day long, I’m hardly alone in doing the best I can.

quote:

Originally posted by sigfreund:

...


* Know why the glasses?

To avoid aerosol contact with the conjunctiva perhaps?