OK, are you responding to me from the other thread?

Now we have two parallel discusions on the same topic. Completely unncessary. That second thread didn't need to be created.

Yep. Sorry. I referred to this thread for a post you made. I should have kept my responses confined to that thread.

quote:

Originally posted by parabellum:
"Suicide is negative"

What does that mean?

Assuming you are really interested in discussing:
Quite simple:
Suicide is "negative" in every connotation of the word "negative".
It is to be avoided and discouraged. It is to be advised against. It is the opposite of "a good thing". I don't know how to make in any clearer.
How we react to this "negative" thing may have layers of nuance, but it is simply "bad".

quote:

The issue is the mindless platitudes- suicide is not the answer, or suicide is a permanent yadda yadda.

We all want greater clarity. But why is "it's not the answer" any more platitudinous than "sometimes it is the only answer" ?

quote:

The problem is that you guys are speaking in absolutes and won't acknowledge the truth, which is that sometimes, suicide is the answer. The truth is that sometimes, suicide is the only actual solution to a permanent problem. The platitude spouters won't acknowledge this truth.

As pointed out earlier: we are all suffering and all dying. Should we all commit suicide ? Is that the harsh truth ? (actually, it is for a nihilist).
But we all aren't nihilists, and there is a huge spectrum between "nihilist" and "Bible thumper".
For almost all those in between, life has some sort of "sacred meaning" and therefore ending a life, including your own, is regarded as a "negative" action.
Do some people get into such a negative mentality or physical situation (suffering) that suicide seems like a way out ? Yes. Maybe I would even commit suicide if in a bad situation.
But I still think that it should be avoided to the limits of my capacities.

In accordance with the "life has meaning" premise: the life has meaning and the suffering has meaning. The endurance of the suffering has meaning. Could a suicide be "understandible" ? Yes. But "respected"? I don't think so.

We could go on and on...all the words are layered with connotations. Just as a factual matter, no problem is permanent because we all die.

quote:

Originally posted by Crom:
We all want greater clarity. But why is "it's not the answer" any more platitudinous than "sometimes it is the only answer" ?

Because the former is untrue because it is an absolute, whereas the latter is not an absolute. I've provided examples, but you want to shoot them down (as if these are the only possible examples) instead of acknowledging the truth of the matter.

This is tiresome. How many times can I repeat the same things to you guys? Hopelessness exists. Sometimes, the only solution to utter hopelessness- based upon actual circumstances and conditions- is to leave this existence.

I say "sometimes" and you guys say "never". That's the difference, because you are demonstrably wrong.

quote:

Originally posted by parabellum:
I say "sometimes" and you guys say "never". That's the difference, because you are demonstrably wrong.

But you say "sometimes it is the only answer"
I say it is "never the only answer."
That is why you are demonstrably wrong

But you seem awfully adamant on this particular issue. Go ahead and respect suicides as much as you want. It is really no skin off my nose. I am just expressing an opinion/belief backed by logic and philosophy. If I were in enough pain I might kill myself just to shut it off. But I wouldn't think that was a decision that deserved "respect".

Stop wasting my time with word games.

This is ridiculous. I've explained my position. If what I've posted doesn't answer your questions, then your questions shall remain unanswered.

I don't "respect suicide". I respect an individual's inherent right to self-determination, unlike those of you who think you know what's best for other people.

For fuck's sake

Crom,

When answers are given in absolutes, often much is missed.

Suicide may not be THE answer, it may not be the only answer, but sometimes it's the appropriate one, for many reasons.

You may not choose to respect it, but that does not change the validity of the choice for the suicide, nor does it diminish the suicide in his or her person, life, or death. In context, Bourdain is not a lesser person for having taken this path, nor should he be disrespected for his decision.

It's possible that were you in his shoes, you may, or may not have made the same choice.

You cannot be in his shoes in your own state of mind, or with your experiences, or views. Only if you've lived his life, with his decisions, experiences, and outcomes, and his state of mind and view, can you begin to address his decision. What you might do, yourself, if placed in a similar situation, is equally irrelevant, as your'e not in that situation and couldn't possibly know. Accordingly, while you may not support that act, some measure of respect is due each person as a human being, with the right to decide and act for themselves.

As said before, you cannot begin to comprehend the nature of what may face a suicide, unless you have been there. Knowing the contributing factors, the circumstances, is not enough. Unless you have stood on the edge, or from the bottom looked up in a pit deep enough that no daylight shone through, or have been in a situation in which there were literally no other options available or in view, you couldn't know. Being unable to know, however, does not change the fact, nor does it invalidate the decision.

For some people, in some circumstances, suicide is appropriate. It may not be appropriate the day before, and perhaps not a day later, but in light of the finality, both become irrelevant.

It's tiresome to hear condemnation of the deceased, or the decision. Again, far better to celebrate how they lived, than to condemn how they died. We would all prefer to not die, or so we imagine. Not all share that preference, and we find this hard to accept. That does not change the fact.

I've said enough here. I certainly don't speak for parabellum or any one else, but I find some of the comments by those who are quick to condemn to be offensive, and others simply lack the experience or common ground to understand. There is no point arguing that or attempting to convince, and I suspect no reason to do so. If someone hasn't been there, they wouldn't know, and no amount of explanation will change it. Perhaps the best that can be hoped is that the measure of respect denied, will be allowed. You've made your choices, they've made theirs.

For you, life goes on.

quote:

Originally posted by sns3guppy:

You may not choose to respect it, but that does not change the validity of the choice for the suicide, nor does it diminish the suicide in his or her person, life, or death. In context, Bourdain is not a lesser person for having taken this path, nor should he be disrespected for his decision.

Rumor is that he saw a picture of his girlfriend with another man on the night before, and that sent him into his suicidal depression. I realize this is just a rumor and it may be totally false. But it creates the question: Do some people commit suicide for "trivial" reasons that are not to be respected ?

quote:

It's possible that were you in his shoes, you may, or may not have made the same choice.

I think I already admitted that I might commit suicide under some circumstances. The questions remain: is it the only answer, is it good in any sense, and should it be respected?

quote:

You cannot be in his shoes in your own state of mind, or with your experiences, or views. Only if you've lived his life, with his decisions, experiences, and outcomes, and his state of mind and view, can you begin to address his decision. What you might do, yourself, if placed in a similar situation, is equally irrelevant, as your'e not in that situation and couldn't possibly know. Accordingly, while you may not support that act, some measure of respect is due each person as a human being, with the right to decide and act for themselves.

As said before, you cannot begin to comprehend the nature of what may face a suicide, unless you have been there. Knowing the contributing factors, the circumstances, is not enough. Unless you have stood on the edge, or from the bottom looked up in a pit deep enough that no daylight shone through, or have been in a situation in which there were literally no other options available or in view, you couldn't know. Being unable to know, however, does not change the fact, nor does it invalidate the decision.

Did it occur to you that I have thought about this a lot already because I have been there ?
Well, I obviously did not commit suicide, so I didn't go over the edge. Is that just because I am "shallow" or didn't take my options seriously enough?
I guess my point is just that, in any serious discussion, you cannot invalidate my opinion by implying I haven't "been there". You really don't know. Have you "been there"? Why is that relevant at all. We cannot hear the opinions of those who actually committed suicide.

quote:

For some people, in some circumstances, suicide is appropriate. It may not be appropriate the day before, and perhaps not a day later, but in light of the finality, both become irrelevant.

That is your opinion. I respect your right to have an opinion. We are just discussing this, and we all have to accept reality after the fact.

quote:

It's tiresome to hear condemnation of the deceased, or the decision.

I don't think you have heard any "condemnation" from me. Saying that it is a thing to be avoided is a long way from condemnation of those who may succumb. I think it is just sad when anyone commits suicide. Maybe the problem is around the connotations of the word "respect". I 'respect" Bourdain and his decision in the sense that I am not going to speak ill of him personally. I don't know what demons he was wrestling with. But I think that given any opportunities helping him to live and choosing to live would be more respect-inspiring than helping him commit suicide or telling him "Yeah, go ahead, you've got a really good reason."

quote:

Originally posted by Crom:
Rumor is that he saw a picture of his girlfriend with another man on the night before, and that sent him into his suicidal depression. I realize this is just a rumor and it may be totally false. But it creates the question: Do some people commit suicide for "trivial" reasons that are not to be respected ?

Well, it's awful if true, and it's also hardly a "trivial" reason. My God, man, he'd hardly be the first. If he was a depressed person to begin with and had any history with women cheating on him, another one at the right time could be just about enough. Sometimes there's just a last straw, and that one there is hardly a "trivial" one at that. Good grief.

Whether you want to respect it or not, that's on you. For myself, I only feel bad for the people who will miss him and judge him not for his choosing. If he needed out, he needed out.

Note to self: Never show P220 Smudge a picture of his girlfriend with another man in the frame.

Anyone who tries to get inside the man's head is wasting their time. If he left a note saying "I ended my life because of..." and then stated the reason(s), it would be different.

Short of that, it's just mental masturbation.

I love the story on Fox the other day about how his friends missed a "warning sign".

The sign? The guy skipped dinner the night before.

So, if you ditch your friends, that means you're suicidal and they should all know this and immediately spring into their "you don't know what you're doing, suicide is not the answer" mode.

That's just more mental masturbation.

No opinions; just facts:
Links Between Suicide and Depression

Major depression is the psychiatric diagnosis most commonly associated with suicide
About 2/3 of people who complete suicide are depressed at the time of their deaths
One out of every 16 people who are diagnosed with depression eventually go on to end their lives through suicide
The risk of suicide in people with major depression is about 20 times that of the general population
People who have had multiple espisodes of depression are at greater risk for suicide than those who have had one episode
People who have a dependence on alcohol or drugs in addition to being depressed are at greater risk for suicide

quote:

Originally posted by Crom:
Note to self: Never show P220 Smudge a picture of his girlfriend with another man in the frame.

I don't follow the news, I'm only going on what you post. I haven't seen the picture, and I guess I don't really care. If you want to make it about me instead of my argument, then I'm out. I've got things to do today, man.

Crom, you don't listen worth a Goddamn.

When training to be a counselor, one point about suicide risk was, that when a depressed person seemed to be getting better, the risk of suicide went up.
The explanation was that they started to have more energy this made the act possible.
That said, suicide gestures are much more common.

quote:

Originally posted by Crom:

Have you "been there"? Why is that relevant at all. We cannot hear the opinions of those who actually committed suicide.

Yes.

It's very relevant, and yes, we can hear the opinions of those who have been there, in more ways than one.

Most leave documentation, some by letter, some by voice or video, but most leave a message, and some return. Again and again.

It's quite possible that in this thread you've heard such a voice.

It may be simply that you're not listening.

quote:

Originally posted by sns3guppy:
Most leave documentation, some by letter, some by voice or video, but most leave a message, and some return. Again and again.

I am continuing to read, with interest, but refraining from interjecting any personal opinions.
I will note the fact that:

quote:

Thanks to movies and TV shows, many people believe that suicide notes are common, and that such notes provide answers to tormenting questions. The real world is quite different. Only 15 to 38% of people who die by suicide leave a note, according to results of 5 studies published in the last 10 or so years.

I have no idea who this guys is. Never heard of him or seen him. I do not care if he is some celeb or not. In my mind he is just another one of many who choose to end theirs lives daily for whatever reason.

Leaves questions for families and friends. It is sad for those they leave behind.

It is what it is.

This guys is not different from anyone else.

quote:

Originally posted by sns3guppy:

quote:

Originally posted by Crom:

Have you "been there"? Why is that relevant at all. We cannot hear the opinions of those who actually committed suicide.

Yes.

It's very relevant, and yes, we can hear the opinions of those who have been there, in more ways than one.

Most leave documentation, some by letter, some by voice or video, but most leave a message, and some return. Again and again.

It's quite possible that in this thread you've heard such a voice.

It may be simply that you're not listening.

Do you have statistical data to back this up??

Granted mine is strictly anecdotal. But I have worked many a suicide and there have been far more that left no message, no notes, no calls, than those that did.

Now folks who “attempted” but did not succeed almost always made a call or sent a text.

There is a very large difference between the two.

What possible difference does it make?