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Member |
What is the probable end state? Assume that Hamas is eliminated. Assume that everyone is agreeable to either an official 2 state solution and/or the integration of Gaza/WB into Israel with palestinians integrated into the state of Israel. Assume that w/ or w/o Hamas, Gaza as we've known it is untenable as a long term solution. Do we really believe that palestinian animosity toward Jews would disappear and/or never grow back into Hamas 2.0? For which war would again be inevitable? What is the real solution for long term peace? Or is that just a pipe dream - the best we can hope for is more extended durations of cease fires? And what do we do about the palestinian supporters domestically and around the world? The ones who will continue to stoke the fire regardless of the elimination of Hamas, regardless of a two state solution. Do we expect them to ever see reason? "Wrong does not cease to be wrong because the majority share in it." L.Tolstoy "A government is just a body of people, usually, notably, ungoverned." Shepherd Book | |||
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| Peace through superior firepower  |
A perpetual Israeli occupation of Gaza, since these savages can't control themselves. Two to three generations of Israel controlling the education of Palestinian children will go a long way towards stopping these psychopaths from turning their children into terrorists. | |||
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Character, above all else |
The Palestinian Authority and how it controls the West Bank (in conjunction with Israeli military occupation) has been a lot less trouble than Hamas in Gaza. I predict a similar solution will eventually be installed in Gaza once Israel has accomplished it's stated goals there. "The Truth, when first uttered, is always considered heresy." | |||
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Diablo Blanco |
Any other way and this process will rinse and repeat every couple of decades. Pretty sure the savages that started this on October 7th had no idea the consequences of their actions. _________________________ "An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile - hoping it will eat him last” - Winston Churchil | |||
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| Peace through superior firepower |
Yes, in addition to being absolute barbarians, these guys are as stupid as shit. Generations of cousin-marrying and inbreeding has turned them into small-minded adolescent trouble-makers. | |||
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Member |
I doubt any in this thread are suggesting eliminating 2 million non-combatant survivors. It seems more an American practice to solve problems as opposed to lesser societies go-to default solution of mass genocide. The frustration reflects the fact that when an evil society wants to kill you as their first choice of a solution, then you're stuck between a rock and a hard place. Remember I.M.O.P principle of self defense, as if criminals burst through your front door and kill you and everyone in your household where you stand, except that in the current parallel situation with Israel not being able to exercise the "Preclusion" part of that equation (evade and escape) which would require Israel to leave and dissolve their own country and give it to the Gazans. So in this way Israel had ZERO "nice" options except for war, since the Gazans' have already violated the I.M.O principles of Intent, Means, and Opportunity, and carried out their atrocities on Oct 7th, and are currently continuing to do so. This leaves Israel with two basic lines or resolution going forward: Let the Gazans' stay whereby everyone continues to suffer (with the good guys suffering more than the bad guys), or an ultimatum of some kind to the Gazans. Since the surviving Gazans will still desire to wipe Israel off the map after the war if over, then Israel will have to choose between more attacks and continual suffering, or giving the Gazans' an ultimatum. If Gazans' can't leave Israel for a new life somewhere else that shares their mutual hatred of Israel, and aren't willing to change their minds about their place in the civilized world, and if Israel decides this is OK and chooses to suffer along with them, that's Israel's choice to make. But if Israel gives the Gazans an ultimatum, something more like make peace or else, I don't see much difference between that and running out of anti-IMOP options in your own home when the bad guys bust in and start murdering you and your family while you watch. The fact that we are frustrated, wanting to solve problems no matter how insolvable because we are a civilized western society based on christian and other civilized religions not based on genocide, then I think we should be able to cut ourselves some slack trying to solve an otherwise unsolvable problem. Lover of the US Constitution Wile E. Coyote School of DIY Disaster | |||
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| Peace through superior firepower |
Then, it's apparent you have not read the entire thread. Meaning what? You're gonna cut yourself some slack by applying fantasy to unsolvable problems? You're going to wish them away? | |||
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Nullus Anxietas |
That and Israel allowing itself to be constrained by people from outside the region that mistakenly believe they know more about how things work there than do the people who actually live there. One suspects that constraint was badly misinterpreted by the mentally deficient inbred barbarians as weakness. Oops! "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system,,,, but too early to shoot the bastards." -- Claire Wolfe "If we let things terrify us, life will not be worth living." -- Seneca the Younger, Roman Stoic philosopher | |||
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| Member |
Not at all. I'm saying if Israel rejects a two-state solution and a permanent military occupation, neither of which I belive are viable options, an ultimatum could be given, something like no support including no electricity, no food, no infrastructure, etc., you can build all that stuff yourself. Since you guys still want to kill us and will do so at your next earliest convenience, then we're not going to help you. My previous parallel with the IMOP principles of SD, you can't expect to cut a deal with the perps in your living room at the cusp of cutting you down, like offering them milk and cookies if they agree to leave your house and not kill your family in the future, that's the basic parallel of Israel implemeting a two-state or permanent military occupation. In my mind the milk and cookies, aka the two-state and permanent military occupation, are the fantasies. It's in this way I think our Sigforum members would opt for the second option of a criminal gang forced entry, that is offering an ultimatum instead of milk and cookies. So I just disagree with you that the milk and cookies option is a better option than an ultimatum, as the former is actually the fantasy to me. It's in this way I disagree with you that Israel has an obligation to continue supporting the Gazans that still want Israel wiped off the map for the next twelve or so generations. Lover of the US Constitution Wile E. Coyote School of DIY Disaster | |||
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| wishing we were congress |
https://www.jpost.com/israel-hamas-war/article-779386 Standing over Sinwar’s crater of a house, an inside look at Khan Yunis - comment This time, going into Gaza, I brought earplugs and a face mask. When I last visited northern Gaza, including Shifa Hospital, I learned the hard way how thunderingly loud it was inside a “Namer” armored personnel carrier (APC) and decided that on the trip to Khan Yunis, being able to hear myself think was a priority. Likewise, the dust that I inhaled on my last trip to Gaza – the area is so destroyed that both open and mostly closed vehicles get covered in dust - convinced me to pull out the “rainy-day” coronavirus masks that I still had lying around so I could breathe normally. The Namer soldiers all had earphones, and many of the soldiers had their faces completely covered with thicker material than a cloth mask. Leaving from a southern IDF base, we traveled entirely by Namer to the forward headquarters of IDF Brig.-Gen. Dan Goldfus, crammed into the tiny converted space inside a mostly still-standing building. We sat (some on the floor and some on a table with cookies and chips) staring at a projector showing your standard army PowerPoint, sitting essentially side-by-side with officials who followed in real time the progress of forces in Khan Yunis. Here and there, Goldfus paused to quietly issue new updated orders, before returning to addressing our group, the first media visit to the southern Gaza front. The next stop was Hamas Gaza leader Yahya Sinwar’s house in Khan Yunis. Despite the ear plugs, I and everyone else were disoriented when we emerged into the daylight and what was left of the street next to what was left of Sinwar’s house. Either because of that disorientation or because the IDF first wanted to show a standing house with bullet holes and holes caused by explosions where there had been a tense fight with Hamas only two days earlier, all the reporters initially started filming the wrong house. After interviewing and recording both Goldfus and Commando Chief Col. Omer Cohen – in front of the wrong house – we all soon realized that the main event was behind a 20-30 foot mound or artificially created dune across “the street” (there was no paved street left.) Everyone dashed over to and up the mound – at least three reporters fell as they were climbing the steep incline, but were caught by others – to reach the top of it where we could see the enormous crater of what is left of Sinwar’s house. Inside the crater was an assortment of shattered and contorted doors, pieces of furniture, carpets, pink and other multi-colored clothing, pillows, and a life-size large blue stuffed animal. It was quite a sight, and standing over it physically made it clear how deeply the IDF has penetrated Gaza, even if the fight to subdue Hamas is far from over. It looked a lot like northern Gaza, where much of the landscape had been demolished. In contrast, much of the area we traveled through in Khan Yunis looked beaten up by fighting, but most of the structures remained intact. If the IDF said it learned lessons from northern Gaza, one of them may have been that destroying less of the landscape in southern Gaza would allow quicker rehabilitation and a better chance to reach a more stable situation once the war is over. Alternately, the IDF used northern Gaza to send a message to Hamas, Hezbollah, and ultimately Iran, and believed that with that, there was no reason to do the same to southern Gaza. Southern Gaza also still holds more agricultural areas and trees, something which IDF commanders noted, that Khan Yunis is less built-up and has a more diverse landscape than the more urban Gaza City. Many warning signs, however, pointed to this trip to Khan Yunis being even more dangerous than the last. The number of air strikes and the volume of artillery fire that could be heard nearby was far higher in Khan Yunis, along with near-constant gun fire in the background. Inside the Namer, the intense focus could be felt by the personnel. One of the operator’s vehicles was hit by a rocket-propelled grenade – he lived to tell the tale, serving as a personal testament to what these vehicles can take. Furthermore, the security briefing, and the convoy we were part of, were far more specific, and went into detail about different battle scenarios and why the rules would be different during this outing. Put simply, the fight was still on at the highest levels in Khan Yunis, whereas at Shifa, Hamas had been cleared out not just of the block, but most of the nearby area. In Shifa, many of the questions that we asked Maj. “D” of Shaldag special forces were about the tunnels and altercations in the hospital right in front of us. In Khan Yunis, most of the questions to Cohen revolved around who was not there – Sinwar himself – who fled his house before the airstrike pulverized the area. On both trips, we did not see civilians. Whether in the north or south, it is quite rare that Hamas is still standing to fight, and almost all altercations that take place are in a smaller hit-and-run style ambush, where terrorists emerge briefly from a tunnel to attack, and then disappear. As we hopped back into the Namer, I wondered when I might return to Gaza, and whether on that trip we would be traveling in greater safety and stability with more of a horizon, one that would reinstate Israelis’ sense of security and free Gazans from Hamas’s grip. Or, whether any next trip would merely be another symbolic victory, which itself would expose how much farther Israel has still to go to achieve its goals. | |||
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| wishing we were congress |
another interesting tunnel video https://twitter.com/i/status/1738986520281796739 https://www.breitbart.com/midd...s-5-hostages-bodies/ The Israel Defense Forces (IDF) continue to uncover massive Hamas tunnel complexes — some involving the sad discovery of the bodies of Israeli hostages. On Sunday, the IDF released multiple videos of the tunnels, which were discovered by troops from the intelligence and engineering corps, and which revealed large, cavernous command rooms, toilets, and work spaces. As part of the operation, and following advanced intelligence, the soldiers, in cooperation with the Multidimensional Unit and the Yahalom Unit, exposed a strategic tunnel network that served as Hamas’ northern headquarters in Gaza. The underground headquarters, which included two levels – the first approximately 10 meters deep and the second dozens of meters deep. The tunnel network, with many routes, was used for directing combat and the movement of terrorists. At the depth of the military headquarters, weapons, infrastructure for manufacturing weapons, and emergency hideouts were found. The network was connected to a shaft leading to the residence of the Commander of Hamas’ Northern Brigade, Ahmad Andur. The underground network also passed beneath a school and a hospital. In a centralized intelligence effort, led by Unit 504 of the Intelligence Directorate, the soldiers located and recovered the bodies of five hostages abducted on October 7th and brought them to be buried in Israel: Warrant Officer Ziv Dado, Sergeant Ron Sherman, Corporal Nik Beizer, Eden Zacharia, and Elia Toledano. May their memory be a blessing. | |||
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Member |
Why isn't this administration pointing out that terrorists are holding AMERICAN hostages? Why are we asking those doing our rescue bidding to tread softly in attempting to rescue them? The question is rhetorical... _________________________ | |||
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| wishing we were congress |
"At first we were ecstatic": Gaza's FAFO moment and Iran's strategic miscalculation https://hotair.com/ed-morrisse...scalculation-n583689 As Haaretz reports today, though, it has begun to dawn on Gazans that they seriously miscalculated how Israel and its allies would respond to this war. “At first we were ecstatic,” one Gazan tells their reporter, celebrating it as a “historic day.” “None of us believed the videos we saw on Saturday morning. Hamas fighters inside Israeli territory and fighting with all their might,” Maha, a 34-year-old woman from Gaza City said in a call with Haaretz. “Who would have thought this would happen?” She called October 7 “a historic day for the Palestinian people.” Maha is not alone in defining the Hamas invasion of Israeli territory as a historic day. Most Palestinians from Gaza who spoke to Haaretz described the first hours as the beginning of the “liberation of Palestine.” “We were ecstatic. It’s like a dream that is hard to wake up from,” Maha adds. Their real mission is clear from the Palestinian protest chant From the river to the sea — the eradication of Israel entirely. What becomes clear in this piece from the far-Left Haaretz is the dawning realization that Gazans made a fatal miscalculation by launching this war. They cheered when Hamas terrorists dragged hostages back because they assumed that the Israelis would play by the old rules: some retaliatory attacks and then generous terms for hostage swaps. They likely assumed that Israel’s allies in the West would pressure them, as usual, to use only “proportional” force in precision-targeted strikes. Instead, the attacks forced Israel to confront a hard reality: there is no peaceful coexistence with Hamas or any other Iranian proxy on its borders. Having tolerated the missile attacks for eighteen years, Israel had hardened its defenses in the calculation that settling the Gaza question would be far more costly than simply isolating it and controlling its borders to keep arms from getting in. This Hamas attack exposed the folly of that approach, as well as the miscalculation of containment of Iran’s ambition to annihilate Israel. They now have no choice but to uproot and destroy Hamas’ footprint in Gaza and ensure it never returns — and that likely means the end of Gaza as a Palestinian settlement. That should please Egypt, even if they won’t admit it, as Hamas was a malevolent branch of the Muslim Brotherhood, the enemy of the al-Sisi regime there The only way to rescue the situation now would be for Gazans to immediately capitulate the territory to Israel and surrender all Hamas terrorists and hostages. That is the only outcome in the war they launched that might keep them in Gaza and under some form of autonomous government. If not, the Gazans had better study the end of World War II and prepare on the basis of what happened to the Germans after the Allies crushed the Nazis. This is what happens when you launch wars of annihilation and conquest, especially with this level of barbarity to inspire your enemies and force your allies to back away. You either win it or get crushed. FAFO, indeed. | |||
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Ammoholic |
After all the the finding out they've been doing, you'd think they'd learn not to fuck around so much. The fact that they consider 10/7 historic and not tragic means they've probably got a little more finding out to do. Jesse Sic Semper Tyrannis | |||
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| Member |
According to my perception, this assassination is not of much less significance than the assassination of Qassem Soleimani. Israeli air strike in Syria kills top Iranian military adviser https://www.aljazeera.com/news...-top-iranian-general | |||
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| Staring back from the abyss  |
Not that this is a bad thing, but until they take out the Iranians themselves, the problem will continue. ________________________________________________________ "Great danger lies in the notion that we can reason with evil." Doug Patton. | |||
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Altitude Minimum |
^^^^^^GOOD! Too bad we didn't have the stones to do it. We need to completely eliminate any of the launch points for these attacks in Yemen> we also need to eliminate the drone factories in Iran that are supplying the drones to the Houtis. | |||
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Member |
Maybe some one here can help me understand something. Specifically, why is Iran so antagonistic to Israel? Most of these conflicts have roots in economic, territorial, or cultural clashes. Israel and Iran have had fairly strong economic ties, with Israel supporting Iran with arms in the Iran-Iraq war. The two countries do not share any borders or lay claims to any disputed territories. Sure, Gaza, Golan Heights, and West Bank are disputed, but none of the disputes are with Iran, proper. I am not sure about cultural clashes, but I am unaware of either side trying to force their culture on the other. In old times, there were good relations between Jews and Persians, with the animosity seeming to arise only within the last 100 years, or so. The only thing I can arrive at that makes any sense, is the the Iranian leaders need an enemy to help them maintain power, and Israel is the easiest choice. As non-Arabs, Israel and Iran have a vested interest in being allied against an Arab majority in the region, what I believe was called the alliance of the periphery. Clearly, Iran, like everyone else, do not care about the Palestinians. So why do they put so much time, money and effort into supporting them against Israel? This space intentionally left blank. | |||
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| Member |
Like much of that part of the world, small groups of powerful people have used their citizens to exact their ideologues in-spite of the needs of their country. The Iranians had little issue with Israel prior to the Islamic Revolution in 1979, while they weren't happy with how the British divided up the Eastern Mediterranean, they and Turkey actually recognized Israel's sovereignty back in '47 well before any of the other ME states. During the reign of the Shah, relations were very good, both countries were actually the most modern and Western of the ME countries. After the revolution and the Islamic theocracy was in-place, things went downhill steeply as a revolving door of Iranian hardline leaders spouted a never-ending stream of hate rhetoric and the IRGC created & supported various proxy groups within Israel's neighbors to wage war against Israel. The mullahs in Iran have used religion, much like religion was used to justify war against the Soviets in Afghanistan, to wage war against Judaism and Israel's very existence. Because the Islamic world revolves around a disciplined and obedient approach to its belief systems, and a significant amount of its population is illiterate, it becomes very easy to whip-up emotions, leverage mores and use it as a weapon. The Iranian leaders are left with their strident and strict ideology, need a boogeyman despite its citizens facing economic collapse, financial isolation and world condemnation. | |||
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| half-genius, half-wit |
Nailed it. Hamas declaring war on Israel is like Malta declaring war on the United States. | |||
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