quote:

Conservative Groups Urge President Trump To Protect Vapers from Flavored Product Ban
Posted by Paul Blair on Thursday, October 3rd, 2019, 6:00 AM

Today, Americans for Tax Reform President Grover Norquist and a coalition of center-right organizations from across the country called on President Donald Trump to preserve access to electronic cigarettes and vapor products that millions of American adults are using to quit smoking or reduce their dependence on tobacco products in the United States. In recent weeks, there have been calls to ban flavored vapor products, including a push by New York billionaire activist Mike Bloomberg, who has invested more than $160 million to push a ban. In the midst of historic-low smoking rates among both teenagers and adults, a number of organizations are urging the President to implement reasonable regulations instead of outright prohibition.

The growing global consensus is that e-cigarettes are at least 95% less harmful than traditional combustible cigarettes. Furthermore, a study published in the New England Journal of Medicine found that e-cigarettes are twice as effective at getting smokers to quit as government-approved smoking cessation products like the nicotine patch.

Essential to the success of e-cigarettes as a tool for reducing adult use of cigarettes is the availability of flavors. Instead of confusing the issue of illness and deaths associated with illicit marijuana use and the popularity of e-cigarettes as a quit-smoking tool, conservative organizations nationally are urging President Trump to protect more than 10,000 small businesses that sell e-cigarettes to adults and implement sensible regulations instead.

Full article: Conservative Groups Urge President Trump To Protect Vapers from Flavored Product Ban

That's telling, right there: If Michael Bloomberg is in favour of it, it's probably a bad thing.

In other news I received an email that contained this announcement:

quote:

This afternoon, the New York State Appellate Division granted a temporary restraining order in the lawsuit brought by the VTA, Benevolent ELiquids Inc., and Perfection Vapes, regarding the proposed flavor ban in New York State, which was set to be enforced tomorrow, October 4, 2019. The Order entered by four appellate judges ruled that the State is “temporarily enjoined and prevented from enforcing” the flavor ban until a ruling on the motion for a preliminary injunction is determined. That motion is scheduled to be heard on October 18, 2019.

(Sorry, it was in email, so no URL available.)

Wow man, do you have any more red herrings in your basket?

I mean, unless my reading comprehension of my own post is off, I never said anything about any regulation of any product. I made two statements of fact, both of which I have either firsthand or direct secondhand knowledge of: what we've been talking about re: teen vaping and a local case of a kid who suffered catastrophic consequences of vaping.

I don't know why you're bring in reduced smoking rates among teens or, lol, huffing paint.

I pointed out that you are factually incorrect. I have firsthand knowledge of just what we've been talking about and how long. I work with teens. You stated that this is something "new" and only an issue "for the children". It is patently not new. You are simply wrong on that one narrow point, and I pointed that out. Unless you have some firsthand knowledge of the sole issue I raised, you're still just wrong.

You couldn't rebut my point so you...did whatever the fuck that was. Make red herring stew?

Time to get over yourself.

quote:

Originally posted by Oat_Action_Man:
Wow man, do you have any more red herrings in your basket?

ITYM "strawman" arguments. A "red herring" is a logical fallacy consisting of an intent to mislead. A "strawman" is setting up a false argument and then knocking it down.

If I committed a strawman, I apologize. I assumed there was a point to your observations beyond (incorrectly, IMO) asserting I was wrong wrt how recently this became a "crises."

quote:

Originally posted by Oat_Action_Man:
I mean, unless my reading comprehension of my own post is off, I never said anything about any regulation of any product.

Regulation, banning, in fact, is a good part of the discussion in this thread. Perhaps I made a bad assumption in assuming you were justifying the current bans and talks about regulation? If so: I apologize.

quote:

Originally posted by Oat_Action_Man:
I don't know why you're bring in reduced smoking rates among teens or, lol, huffing paint.

I explained why I brought those up.

quote:

Originally posted by Oat_Action_Man:
I pointed out that you are factually incorrect. I have firsthand knowledge of just what we've been talking about and how long.

That does not make me wrong. Your knowledge aside: Until fairly recently one never heard about it in the "news." At least not around here. Now, w/in the last few months or so, it's a "crises."

quote:

Originally posted by Oat_Action_Man:
Time to get over yourself.

Ad hominems? Srsly?

The gentlemen doth protest too much, methinks.

OK, guys. If you want this thread to continue, be cool.

I had a client vape through his jury trial once. The judge and I didn't see it because he would turn away but the prosecutor pointed it out to me during a break. The jury probably saw it. He was convicted, not sure if the vaping really mattered though.

if someone wants to kill themselves, we should let them do it

why do we care?

really, you can tell them its not good for them, show them the stats and they're still gonna die

some just sooner than later

quote:

Originally posted by nhtagmember:
if someone wants to kill themselves, we should let them do it

why do we care?

really, you can tell them its not good for them, show them the stats and they're still gonna die

This badly distorts what appears to be going on here.

So far it does not appear anybody's dying from vaping using quality hardware, properly, and vaping juice from reputable makers. (Not any sooner than they otherwise would, anyway.) So far, it would would appear the deaths and sicknesses are occurring as a result of people vaping black market THC products.

This is one of the problems with the panic "solutions" leftists (you'll notice it's all leftists invoking emergency bans--that, right there, should be cause for scepticism) are employing: They're crippling, perhaps even destroying an industry and not even addressing the real problems.

IMO we should care about black market products that are killing people. You'd care if sub-standard, counterfeit, black-market powder was blowing up firearms and maiming or killing firearms users, would you not? Of course you would. You certainly wouldn't support a blanket ban on the selling of gun powder to address the problem, would you? Of course you wouldn't.

The one variable normal vapers may use is how much power are you vaping with. I vape at 17 watts, much above that gets hot and spits back.

As I understand "cloud chasers" push the envelop, big time. Very low resistance coils and 200-300 watts in extreme cases for giant cloud production. As a result, users also go through huge amounts of juice as well. If this turns out to have medical implications, I'll not be surprised.

Editorial article in Today's Knoxville News Sentinel from a doctor at Vandy. Says he's seeing large number of devastating cases in middle school aged kids.

His point was - it took decades to find out that tobacco smoking was bad for humans. With vaping, he's seeing bad things right away instead of decades later. Also quoted a stat that 1 in 5 middle-schoolers reported vaping at some point. That's not good if true.

I see both sides to this arguement and don't really care too much either way, as long as they aren't blowing that shit in my face.

quote:

Originally posted by SBrooks:
Editorial article in Today's Knoxville News Sentinel from a doctor at Vandy. Says he's seeing large number of devastating cases in middle school aged kids.

His point was - it took decades to find out that tobacco smoking was bad for humans. With vaping, he's seeing bad things right away instead of decades later.

The thing that's missing is what have they been vaping?

Consider the fact that adults, some barely out of high school, have been vaping for years with no effect. Yet, for some reason with young people we're seeing "bad things right away."

There's an inconsistency here that those opposed to vaping are glossing over.

quote:

Originally posted by SBrooks:
Also quoted a stat that 1 in 5 middle-schoolers reported vaping at some point. That's not good if true.

Did they also note that cigarette smoking amongst teens is at its lowest level in a couple decades or more? Or did they gloss over that inconvenient little fact, too?

quote:

Originally posted by SBrooks:
I see both sides to this arguement ...

I see only one side: Adults should be allowed to make their own decisions and the misbehaviour on the part of children shouldn't be making their decisions for them at the government's behest.

ETA: I'm not trying to be contrary or confrontational with these follow-ups. Just trying to get the other side of the story out there, since the government is doing what governments do best and the "news" media is doing its usual top-notch job.

quote:

Originally posted by ensigmatic:
I see only one side: Adults should be allowed to make their own decisions and the misbehaviour on the part of children shouldn't be making their decisions for them at the government's behest.
ETA: I'm not trying to be contrary or confrontational with these follow-ups. Just trying to get the other side of the story out there, since the government is doing what governments do best and the "news" media is doing its usual top-notch job.

Right There With You.

N.B.: This is from an industry newsletter, so take it for what it's worth. It's not a vape industry newsletter, however. That being said...

The government, with the dominant "news" media as essentially its propaganda arm, are misleading the public. Again.

quote:

CDC's Communications are Likely Making this Outbreak Much Worse
Friday, October 04, 2019

A new survey released yesterday by the National Opinion Research Center (NORC) at the University of Chicago found that the public believes that vaping nicotine-based e-liquids is much more harmful than vaping THC e-liquids.

While 54% of the public believes that vaping nicotine is very harmful, only 38% believe that vaping THC is very harmful. And while just 16% of the public does not believe that nicotine vapes are harmful, an amazing one-third (33%) of the public does not believe that vaping marijuana carries any risk.

This despite the fact that...

quote:

The evidence that contaminated THC oils are linked to the outbreak continues to get stronger every day.

And why does the public function under this misapprehension? Well, perhaps because...

quote:

...the CDC's failure to clearly communicate to the public the extremely high level of risk associated with vaping THC and its concerted effort to try to blame traditional, legal, store-bought nicotine-containing electronic cigarettes for the outbreak.
...
Even though 100% of these patients were vaping black market THC, the CDC made nothing of that information and refused to warn the public not to vape black market THC, instead remaining deliberately vague in its warning in order to be able to implicate nicotine electronic cigarettes,

Full article: CDC's Communications are Likely Making this Outbreak Much Worse

This is precisely as I've been saying all along.

You're being lied-to, folks. Again. By a government agency that is supposed to protect you, with the dominant "news" media as willing accomplices to the lies. Or behaving very incompetently, at the very least, in swallowing the government story hook, line and sinker.

Regardless of what you think about vaping, you ought to be damn mad.

The CDC long ago fell down the hole where you'll find the Southern Poverty Law Center, National Geographic, the American Medical Journal, Snopes, you get the idea. Sources touted as the final arbiters of truth turn out not to be. Settled science is more fluid than I can remember and yeah, trust the CDC at your peril.

When AIDS surfaced in the late 70's, I was working news in Houston. If you don't know, Houston is renowned for its immense gay population and we were at the pointy end of the AIDS news stick.

I moved to St. Louis in the early 80's, AIDS was starting to be a national issue. As AIDS was so new, there was little valuable research. I remember the CDC hosting an AIDS deal there, locals had questions. The CDC folks were dismissive and arrogant as if they had the real answers. They didn't but don't press them on that.

At some point later I went to the CDC HQ in Atlanta, we were doing another AIDS story. Just as before, the CDC attitude was dismissive and arrogant with us. It was obvious what they chose to impart had an agenda and was of limited value, if any.

Read about commie turned conservative firebrand David Horowitz's change, his "second thoughts". His book "Radical Son" is essential reading IMO. He was in San Francisco when AIDS surfaced and all indications tied it to sexual practices within SF's gay community. Horowitz was stonewalled by authorities there who actively worked to bury the obvious.

Not off track here, the CDC is a big part of an institutional pathology.

Finally perhaps the truth is coming out?

Vaping Illness Update: FDA Warns Public to Stop Using Tetrahydrocannabinol (THC)-Containing Vaping Products and Any Vaping Products Obtained Off the Street

Excerpt:

quote:

A majority of the samples tested by the states or by the FDA related to this investigation have been identified as vaping products containing THC. Through this investigation, we have also found most of the patients impacted by these illnesses reported using THC-containing products, suggesting THC vaping products play a role in the outbreak.

Local TV station "news" media caught red-handed misleading their viewers:

Thank you for your last two posts ensigmatic. I have been looking for an article that I read about 2 weeks ago where the vast majority of these "vaping" hospitalizations were from doing THC. It was buried in the second to last paragraph of the piece FYI.

You're welcome, Bytes. Thanks for the thanks

I know some may feel I'm being overly, perhaps annoyingly persistent wrt this issue, but what the government and dominant "news" media are doing really pisses me off, and I find it quite concerning. If they get away with this, and they might, what's to discourage them from pulling the same stunt with something else "somebody" wants to kill off?

Like I believe I've said before: The only things somewhat protecting gun owners from the same kind of pogrom are the Second Amendment (when we have a good SCOTUS) and the NRA.

I'd really prefer the government and media be taught they can't get away with pulling this shit on the American public.

People have been vaping for years? I thought it was a fairly new product.

flashguy

quote:

Originally posted by flashguy:
People have been vaping for years? I thought it was a fairly new product.

Not at all. I first vaped over three years ago. At the time there were vape shops, most tobacco shops in my area had vape sections, there were plenty of on-line resellers, dozens of manufacturers and hundreds of products. The diacetyl issue, which was what caused the infamous "popcorn lung," was already pretty much old news.

There are charts here: Vaping by the numbers that will give you an idea of how long it's been around.

Read the text critically, however. It contains such silliness as "Vaping is now so pervasive among high school students that federal health officials say its use has fueled a sharp reversal in what had been a celebrated two-decade decline in overall tobacco use by teenagers." Uhm... what?

What is new is vaping's popularity has surged in the last couple years, particularly among high school aged children and young adults. Conversely: Cigarette smoking has plunged dramatically in that same demographic in that same time period. (See my previous comments and cites.)

What is also new, perhaps as a result of the relaxation of marijuana laws at the state level in many states, is THC-infused vaping liquids. There are safe products, available from licensed dispensaries. Since the dispensaries are licensed and the products they sell regulated: They're somewhat expensive. Enter the black market, people buying cheap THC-infused vape juice off the street, and a surge in "vaping-related" injuries and deaths.

Bottom line: Is vaping safe? Yes and no. That's like asking "Is sky diving safe?" Yes, it can be relatively safe, or it can kill you.