quote:

Originally posted by ensigmatic:

There are charts here: Vaping by the numbers that will give you an idea of how long it's been around.

I've been vaping something over five years. Vaping had been a measurable thing about five years before that best I can tell. The chart seems to address USA vaping. As it started in China, no idea what sort of numbers worldwide, not inconsiderable I guess.

When I started, hardware and juice weren't all that cheap but way less than a cig habit. Within my first year, prices plummeted and have continued. Well, except for the Big Tobacco products, single use juice pods and devices not meant to last.

I was at the end of my rope with cigs, nothing was going to get me off them. Vaping was the last resort and I kicked the cigs immediately. I almost feel guilty how easy it was. Also a little bitter I had to wait so long for an answer. I'll never apologize for vaping. I see someone smoking and I want to put my arm around them and say there's a better way if you must have your nicotine.

quote:

Originally posted by Ripley:
I see someone smoking and I want to put my arm around them and say there's a better way if you must have your nicotine.

I admire how much money they have. If someone can afford a smoking habit today, they have WAY more disposable income than I do.
Vaping keeps me from smoking...and my checking account (and health) is much better off.
Should I quit vaping? Maybe, but for a “bad” habit it’s pretty benign.

quote:

Originally posted by KMitch200:

quote:

Originally posted by Ripley:
I see someone smoking and I want to put my arm around them and say there's a better way if you must have your nicotine.

I admire how much money they have. If someone can afford a smoking habit today, they have WAY more disposable income than I do.

Man, you got that right! I was having a beer with my next door neighbour and mentioned to my wife I wanted to make one last juice purchase before Michigan's ban went into effect, last Tuesday. My wife balked. My neighbour replied "Let him go. If he was buying cigarettes he'd be paying that much for just two packs." "What?!?!" I replied. "How much does a pack of smokes cost these days?" Turns out to be about $10, here in Michigan. Holy smokes!

^^^^^
A little drift talking about cost $$...

Mother had a friend who would drink a "handle" of Old Charter every weekend (1.75ML ??) and smoked AT LEAST 2 packs a day. We put the math to it one day, and it was a STAGGERING sum of money per year spent on that...in the THOUSANDS of dollars back in the early 80's. A LOT of money to drink and smoke away...
[/DRIFT]

According to this, “e-cigarettes” were first introduced to the U.S. in 2006-2007. Assuming that everyone who uses them now didn’t start immediately at that time, it’s true that people have been using them for years, but hardly very many years. If they were horribly dangerous, that would have become apparently very quickly. They may be safer than cigarettes, but keep in mind that it took decades to recognize that smoking cigarettes was dangerous to smokers’ health. Even some things that seem glaringly obvious later are often denied at first. During the earliest classes I attended on the effects of illegal drugs, the instructors confidently declared that cocaine was not addictive! (Yes, true fact.) For many years there was a strong element in medical circles that claimed the HIV (human immunodeficiency virus) didn’t cause AIDS.

Only a very small fraction of smokers develop lung cancer or serious heart problems within a decade or so of starting, and the fact that most vapers aren’t dropping over around us likewise proves nothing about the habit’s long term safety.

Your point is well-taken, sigfreund. Only thing I'll note is that analyses of vapor produced by atomizing quality e-liquids vs. the smoke produced by the average cigarette has typically shown the latter to contain about ten times or more the amount of toxins and carcinogens.

I would be so bold as to suggest vaping is probably little, if any, more harmful than breathing the air in many modern urban areas.

quote:

Originally posted by ensigmatic:
[T]he smoke produced by the average cigarette has typically shown the latter to contain about ten times or more the amount of toxins and carcinogens.

And that is a critical point as well. As I’ve mentioned before, someone who means a lot to me exchanged vaping for cigarettes, and I therefore sincerely hope that it’s as safe as it appears to be based on that reason.

quote:

Originally posted by ensigmatic:
I would be so bold as to suggest vaping is probably little, if any, more harmful than breathing the air in many modern urban areas.

And what methodology do you have to back up this suggestion? Longitudinal study? Double blind study?

I kind of doubt anyone here is doing clinical studies of any of this so there's that.

Vaping heats a couple materials -- PG and VG -- and they vaporize. In this case nicotine and maybe flavoring can be delivered in that vapor. There's some variance in temps used to vaporize but nothing near the temps produced by combustion of tobacco and God knows what else is stuck in cigs.

I know in some cases medication is delivered by nebulizing, creating a very fine mist "vapor". No heating essentially and maybe unrelated but using "minimal" temps to produce a vapor seems a lot safer than combusting anything.

A decade ago, when I still smoked, my lungs tested healthy but over a decade older than my actual age. Every time I've seen my primary care doc since then, she listens to my lungs and seems genuinely surprised how good they sound.

Maybe vaping will kill me some day, I do know these last five years, I feel much better.

My wife noticed the health benefits of vaping vs cigs within days.

quote:

Originally posted by sigfreund:

I started in 2011. Back then it was harder to get the stuff and local stores were non-existent. I was ordering my stuff online.

I was a very heavy user for a couple years. I could vape more than I smoked and I did. After a couple of years I began reducing the amount of nicotine I was using and with that reduction cake a reduction in my desire to use the vape at all.

I still use it from time to time but only when I’m having a few drinks. A cartridge that probably would have lasted me half a day 5 years ago probably lasts me two weeks now. But it’s been over 8 years and all signs point towards me being better off than when I smoked cigarettes.

FWIW just like anything I pay attention to what I’m using. I only buy high quality liquids and products from reputable dealers in the U.S.

quote:

Originally posted by fritz:

quote:

Originally posted by ensigmatic:
I would be so bold as to suggest vaping is probably little, if any, more harmful than breathing the air in many modern urban areas.

And what methodology do you have to back up this suggestion? Longitudinal study? Double blind study?

Nothing more than a SWAG, fritz, with very little "S" and a lot of "WAG"

But, given 30 Urban Air Toxic Pollutants & 68 Area Sources From the EPA, I might not be far off the mark. In fact ISTR a report I read at some point that asserted the air in some metropolitan areas was so bad, even cigarette smoking didn't appreciably affect health risk.

Do you commute by automobile on a daily basis? I used to. I can't count the number of times I drove through visible exhaust from other motor vehicles--diesel, in particular. That can't be good.

Results of slightly different search terms: Air pollution 'as bad as smoking in increasing risk of miscarriage'

A Wikipedia article: Air pollution

I remember when we used to come back from up north when I was a kid. You could smell when we were approaching "civilization." Or looking north from San Diego twenty+ years ago and seeing an ugly yellow/brown stain on the horizon that was Los Angeles.

So...conjecture with an anecdotal point here and there. Got it.

I use automobiles and live in a city. So do you -- unless you've suddenly gone all granola bar, moved to somewhere in the middle of the wilderness 500+ miles from the nearest road, and use horses for travel. So we all breathe modern industrial air.

I have a strong sense of smell, which one can consider a blessing or a curse. When driving at speeds of up to 30 or 40 mph, I can generally smell if the person in the car ahead of me is smoking cigarettes, weed, or flavored vape. Now if someone wants to increase the amount of foreign crap in their lungs, that's their own business. As long as the foreign crap they exhale doesn't mix with the air that I breathe.

But I'm breathing their crap, and I don't like it.

We have employees at our office who both smoke and vape. Both foul habits make their clothing and breath reek. As management, I must deal with everyone in the company as equals, and I must tolerate the foul odor they impart upon the air near me. But I find their close proximity to be unpleasant. I do what is possible to keep all interaction as brief as possible with these people, and at as much distance as possible.

You can use whatever arguments you want to justify your habit of vaping. Compare how a gazillion things are proven worse than the lack of evidence behind what vaping does or does not do to a person. Vape until the cows come home. Vape while people vaping are getting sick or dying. Vape like their is nothing better in this world than vaping.

But I agree with jljones -- vaping is dumb. Enjoy your habit. Just keep your foul exhaust away of those of us who don't want to breathe the air you've polluted inside your lungs.

I have no problem with people poisoning themselves or stuffing addictive substances into their bodies as long as it doesn’t affect me. But if I have to smell cigarette smoke or vape clouds from lazy pos’s that take a long last drag before walking indoors and exhaling, it affects me. If 20 years from now the health effects of “totally safe vaping” costs me money, it affects me.

If people want to imbibe in unsafe practices or substances, it should not cost everyone that does not even one red cent of taxpayer dollars. If someone develops lung cancer or popcorn lung, or whatever, they should only be able to take it up with provider companies or insurance companies charging them higher premiums, not anyone else.

The point, fritz, is that legitimate vape products are probably no more injurious than the crap you're inhaling driving down the road every day in a city, and possibly significantly less so. Thousands of cars and trucks in relatively close proximity emitting, literally, tons of pollutants into the air you're breathing, many of them directly into the air into which you're directly driving.

I would go so far as to suggest a casual smoker, never mind someone who vapes, living out in the boondocks probably inhales less pollution in a 24 hour period than do you.

<does a quick search...>

I'm wasn't necessarily that far off: How Much Are You 'Smoking' by Breathing Urban Air?

You think vaping is stupid. And you find the fumes from them objectionable. I feel the same way about diesel engines and diesel exhaust fumes, so I get it. Fine. But that has nothing at all to do with the relative safety of vaping or the lack thereof.

Speaking of the safety of vaping...

Another culprit potentially identified: Colorado Lab Results Point to New Culprit in Vaping Cases: A Specific Chemical Used in Cheap Vape Pens

Excerpts:

quote:

A new study by a Colorado lab points to a new potential culprit in the nationwide wave of lung injuries caused by vaping: a rare disease caused by inhalation of a chemical present in many cheap vape pens that is used to fuse metals together.
...
NBC News gathered vaping products and commissioned CannaSafe Lab in California to test the cartridges: 13 out of 15 black market cartridges contained vitamin E acetate, and none of the legal cartridges contained any harmful additives. Ten out of ten black market cartridges tested for pesticides contained myclobutinol, a highly potent pesticide that turns into hydrogen cyanide when burned.

(emphasis added)

Then there's this:

quote:

Further complicating the issue in Oregon is that both of the patients who died from vaping purchased products from licensed dispensaries.

But did they purchase all their products from licensed dispensaries? I don't know about Oregon, but, as I understand it, Michigan runs random tests on THC vape dispensary products and halts the sales of such products that are found not to be in compliance.

quote:

Another patient who survived, Justin Wilson, told WW he exclusively vaped non-THC Juul pods. His doctor told him oil build-up in the lungs had caused his near-death illness.

"Oil build-up?" From Juul vape pens? That seems to me highly unlikely. I strongly suspect either he was vaping something else, as well, or he was buying counterfeit Juul vape pens.

Note one theme that's increasingly appearing to be common in all this: Black market and/or cheap vape products.

I'm in the same boat with fritz and gearhounds. Smoke or vape if you want--just don't do it around me. Regarding pollution in city air, I'm stuck with it, so it isn't an issue.

flashguy

quote:

Originally posted by ensigmatic:
The point, fritz, is that legitimate vape products are probably no more injurious than the crap you're inhaling driving down the road every day in a city, and possibly significantly less so.

If that's how you justify your habit of putting even more crap into your lungs than the average citizen, then keep on keeping on.

quote:

Originally posted by fritz:
If that's how you justify your habit of putting even more crap into your lungs than the average citizen, then keep on keeping on.

Please read carefully what I'm writing, fitz. I'm not attempting to justify anything. I'm trying to bring some facts to an issue that's being wildly distorted by government agencies (I'll assume by way of ineptitude) and the dominant "news" media.

I'm really asking no more than we gunowners ask of the same parties. And everybody else.

Facts? Seriously? You show no longitudinal or double blind studies on the vaping's effects on humans. You state you're swagging your thoughts. You state that vaping is probably no more injurious than breathing urban air.

Maybe you should also mention studies of chemicals in our drinking water. Or the trace elements in the milk we put on our morning GMO-enhanced cereal. Maybe there are studies about soaps, deodorants, and toothpastes we use on a daily basis. Hey, maybe -- sorta, kinda, I hope, possibly -- there are other things out there that might be hazardous to our bodies, too. And since society seems to accept them, why not add vaping to the list.

But ultimately you're trying to justify the use of products which are quite efficient at placing chemicals -- both known and unknown -- into some of the most sensitive tissues in the human body. Products which have little, if any, impartial studies on their short-, intermediate-, and long-term effects.

Vape on. Just keep your vapors away from me.

I see a great deal of hypocrisy in (potentially) banning vaping or vape products while not applying the same standards to cigarettes. They don't because cigs are a revenue source. But that isn't the main point. That would be that with all the noxious chemical fumes you breathe in the air around you, why add to it by sucking in more noxious chemical fumes? A bogus reason to justify vaping if I ever saw one.