This last page made me think of this interaction between Dennis Miller and Norm McDonald.

A little comic relief:




Link to original video: https://youtu.be/zBmIoUO7_Gc

You win!

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:
Good lord.

I love me a good conspiracy theory.

Let me see if I understand this.

If I don't understand your constant need to stick a plastic dick in your mouth constantly, I am brainwashed and hate the Second Amendment and Freedom?

This is a YUGE conspiracy of BIG TOBACCO, BIG TOBACCO, BIG TOBACCO? (Where else have we heard the incessant use of "BIG (Insert whatever you want to villianize)".

Let me break it down for you from people who don't vape.

I don't give a shit about your constant need to stick that dick in your mouth. Not one bit. What I do care about is your need to stick that dick in your mouth in crowded public places. And blow whatever vile concoction all over the other party goers. And when people try to complain they get attitude and "Its just vapor, man".

And maybe, just maybe, we're tired of seeing people, particularly kids, in ICU because "it's just vapor man". And perhaps we're also tired of hearing "Well, if you use these they'll kill you, but these are completely legit. So, stop being a commie and hating vaping."

Please also spare us the gun and "freedom" comparisons. If I fire my gun in a crowd, I get my ass shot, or at the very least get dragged out and charged with a felony. It's just people defending vaping attempting to get hero status by comparing anyone who dislikes the smell or having unknown shit blown in their faces as being the EXACT same as Pelosi or Beto. Vaping is not like guns, nor are society being tired of the shit being spewed in our face in the name of "freedom". I hear commercials constantly from a tobacco shop about the "persecuted smoker". They got that way because people got tired of having smoke blown in our faces and "because freedom". Vapers didn't learn from that lesson apparently. That and they insist on "Well, don't take mine away because of a few bad actors. It's just like guns, man". STOP IT. No it isn't. People who misuse guns get punished. There are laws against misusing guns.

Vape drain cleaner if you want. Don't do it around me. THAT IS FREEDOM.

I feel bad for you if you can't recognize this is just another assault on our freedom. What do you care what I put in my body? I don't know you and it's really unlikely I'd want to hangout with you anyway- so rest assured... I will not be vaping in your face- in fact I don't vape in any body's face. It might be a good idea for you to do some research so you can speak intelligently on this subject. You might also want to follow the money... politicians are in bed with big tobacco- period- this is FACT, not conspiracy theory. They Will take liberty & freedom from us...little bits of a time. This week vaping, next week maybe beef because it causes cholesterol, then ammo. You'll likely be spittin' mad when they come for your AR15. Don't say I told you so. It's clear that their divide and conquer approach is working

EVERYTHING has some fraction of the population that will react badly to it. Especially if done to excess. I'm guessing we are seeing a combination of a large number of people exposed to vaping over a period of years, some with a self control issue, some using known harmful chemicals, some using an unknown mix of chemicals. I'd be surprised if there weren't bad reactions out there.

Regulate it just to the point there aren't harmful chemicals aside from the nicotine the adult smokers need to get to wean off tobacco. Don't let minors buy it.

Oh, and let those without any vices throw the first stone.

I don't know as there's a conspiracy on the part of Big Tobacco. (Btw: I've read Big Pharma is invested in vape products, too.) But I do find it somewhat suspicious that, other than a couple well-identified issues (*), vaping had been regarded as relatively benign (**) until just recently.

Now, all-of-a-sudden and out of nowhere: OMG! Children are vaping! It's an epidemic! And OMG! People are dying! We have to DO SOMETHING!

So, while I'm loath to subscribe to the Conspiracy Theory Of The Day (***), I'm also just a trifle suspicious of how this all came about and the motivations behind some of those being so quick to kill the industry. And even were I not: Some of the current measures being taken are exceedingly heavy-handed.

(*) Diacetyl-induced popcorn lung and exploding mech mods
(**) Generally found to be about ten times less hazardous than cigarette smoking.
(***) A popular hypothesis going around currently is it's a Big Industry plot to kill off all the little guys, after which the industry will be revived with them controlling it.

quote:

Originally posted by Bytes:

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:
I'm fine with the push back, Para.

Is my wife a dick sucker and are you one yourself? Easy question...

Should be easy, the wife is a dick sucker and your not. Both of you are dick suckers, she's not and you are, or neither of you are. Not quite sure why you avoid this? Actually I do.

OK, you've made your point. Let's just take it easy.

10-4 Para

All props to flaman, thank you. Our stories as vapers are almost identical. I'm going to assume with your long time here and small number of posts, this issue pushes some buttons.

I commented earlier that the saturation ads from yes Big Tobacco's Juul and Blu e-cigs are no coincidence. Along with these ads, they touted their dropping of flavors as if they're looking out for us. And yes, small vendors made far more money from their flavored juices than vaping hardware. Eliminating them is to you-know-who's advantage.

Tobacco has seen a huge erosion in what was a massive business. They still hold great sway in DC and want their monopoly back. Many pols have jumped on the bandwagon. Grandstanding for the "greater good", personal liberty be damned.

How is it all of a sudden these adulterated, dangerous THC products and their damage showed up? I don't know, there's another big, separate story to be uncovered. But this has given the usual suspects an opportunity to posture against the whole vaping industry.

The biggest bastards here -- as always -- the news media who exist for dirty laundry and to pose as our protectors. Vaping as such is not a crisis or an epidemic.

Maybe I'm just speaking for myself, the daily tsunami of ugliness from Big News is wearing me out, my fuse is that much shorter. We're all in this together everyone, let's choose our fights better than this.

Thanks again, flaman, I for one appreciate your measured and thoughtful comments. I hope you can find more reasons to regularly engage.

quote:

Originally posted by Ripley:
All props to flaman, thank you. Our stories as vapers are almost identical. I'm going to assume with your long time here and small number of posts, this issue pushes some buttons.

I commented earlier that the saturation ads from yes Big Tobacco's Juul and Blu e-cigs are no coincidence. Along with these ads, they touted their dropping of flavors as if they're looking out for us. And yes, small vendors made far more money from their flavored juices than vaping hardware. Eliminating them is to you-know-who's advantage.

Tobacco has seen a huge erosion in what was a massive business. They still hold great sway in DC and want their monopoly back. Many pols have jumped on the bandwagon. Grandstanding for the "greater good", personal liberty be damned.

How is it all of a sudden these adulterated, dangerous THC products and their damage showed up? I don't know, there's another big, separate story to be uncovered. But this has given the usual suspects an opportunity to posture against the whole vaping industry.

The biggest bastards here -- as always -- the news media who exist for dirty laundry and to pose as our protectors. Vaping as such is not a crisis or an epidemic.

Maybe I'm just speaking for myself, the daily tsunami of ugliness from Big News is wearing me out, my fuse is that much shorter. We're all in this together everyone, let's choose our fights better than this.

Thanks again, flaman, I for one appreciate your measured and thoughtful comments. I hope you can find more reasons to regularly engage.

Thank you very much; nice meeting you Ripley! Very interesting points, and I totally agree with your opinion of the media, however I'll add that I think they are 100% culpable for creating divides in our country; divides that play right into "conquer & divide"; divides that I believe are funded by self-seeking billionaires with an agenda. I always value respectful exchange of ideas... to hear viewpoints from other people who see life differently than me. Far too often today, people who disagree with the ideas of others fall back on insults to drive home their perspectives. What a shame. Anyway... it was a pleasure

The dominant media sucks. On that I think we can all agree.

What I don't understand is how anybody could find the dominant media's coverage of vaping any more credible than its coverage of anything else

quote:

Originally posted by ensigmatic:

What I don't understand is how anybody could find the dominant media's coverage of vaping any more credible than its coverage of anything else

Excellent point!

Cdc looks poised to finally admit that black market thc cartridges are to blame and not nicotine.

https://m.metrotimes.com/detro...Content?oid=22770256

I'm sure this won't stop the governments push to turn all vaping profits over to tobacco manufacturers...

quote:

Originally posted by Scurvy:
Cdc looks poised to finally admit that black market thc cartridges are to blame and not nicotine.

https://m.metrotimes.com/detro...Content?oid=22770256

I'm sure this won't stop the governments push to turn all vaping profits over to tobacco manufacturers...

The problem with ANYTHING black market, is you never know what's in it. I don't feel bad for some idiots buying black market THC cartridges and killing themselves. Or, someone buying cocaine or heroin and it has fentanyl in it and them OD'ing. You know what you signed up for when you buy things of that nature and that there are risks involved. I don't vape, but am a cigarette smoker.....but I don't have anything against the majority of people that vape. I do for the ones that are idiots (same with inconsiderate cigarette smokers) that do stupid things......like exhale a bunch of smoke after they walk into the doors of a business. I don't think vaping should/needs to be banned, but does need some sort of regulation.

As for JLJones and his speech on banning vaping. I'm guessing JL Jones is not a saint and does drink alcohol, whether it be time to time or often. I rarely drink alcohol, once a month maybe. BUT, tons of innocent people are killed or negatively effected by alcoholics. How would you feel if they banned that instead????? To me, I could care less if they ban it......but I respect the fact that it's a freedom that many others enjoy that isn't healthy, but then again neither are cigarettes (which 20% of the population does) or vapers. Roughly 54% of the population drinks alcohol......and I'm guess 20% to excess or are alcoholics.

quote:

Originally posted by Balzé Halzé:
Congresswomen Tlaib is without doubt one of the most vile people serving in Congress today. Vile and despicable.

Seriously, just what the hell is her problem here? And we're paying this awful broad?




Link to original video: https://youtu.be/mD7_Ho_2Zr0

Ridiculous condescension from Tlaib regardless of the subject. I was expecting her to channel Barb Boxer's "Do me a favor: could say 'senator' instead of 'ma'am?' It's just a thing, I worked so hard to get that title, so I'd appreciate it, yes, thank you."

Trivia: I went to high school with Ms. Vicki Porter shown in this clip and have kept in contact for years. In high school, she was very liberal, but made a hard turn to the right around the time of college. She's quite the conservative now.

Member jljones, and others, may dismiss the suggestions that recent campaigns against vaping are part of a broad government and tobacco industry conspiracy, but sometimes "where there's smoke..." Consider, for example, Representative Rashida Tlaib (D-MI):

quote:

I would like to inform Tlaib personally that the only “conspiracy theory” surrounding the use of tobacco products in America is that every form of government, from local to state to federal entities, relies on the lungs of smokers for revenue. But Tlaib should already know all about this.

Tlaib, after all, got her political career started in the early 2000s in Lansing, Michigan, when she was hired by then-State Rep. Steve Tobocman. She was then elected in 2008 to the same chamber. During her time at the capitol, Tlaib would have learned exactly how states have used smokers to meet their debt obligations.

Full article: Rep. Tlaib, the Only ‘Conspiracy’ is that Government Relies on Smokers for Revenue

Maybe it's conspiracy. Maybe it's not. Maybe it's just ignorance and a burning desire to be seen "doing something." Especially "for the children." On the one hand I try to stay clear of tin foil hat territory. On the other hand I'm also not a big believer in coincidence. On the gripping hand there's Hanlon's Razor: "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."

No matter what the explanation: Broad bans against an industry, without sufficient cause, such as that invoked by Michigan Governor Gretchen Whitmer (D), threaten to destroy businesses and put people out of work. To add insult-to-injury: They don't really address the problems they purport to address and may drive some number of people, including teens, (back) into smoking.

Here in Michigan I'm witnessing the most astonishing thing: The government, with the dominant media eagerly playing propaganda machine, destroy an industry based entirely upon half truths and made up "facts."

It's really kind of scary

Thank God for the 2nd Amendment and the NRA, is all I can say.

All personal issues with vaping aside, there are 800 people with "reported" injury/death from Vaping and as far as been determined it's from bootleg THC laced cartridges, not much different than when people were buying bootleg hooch from unscrupulous shiners who sold dirty shine.

I wouldn't put it past a boardroom discussion at a tobacco company on how to stop the vaping trend, or, take it over, wouldn't doubt that they are interested in doing so, that's capitalism, but distributing illicit THC laced cartridges probably isn't in the plan, killing and scaring off your customers and inciting today's "never miss a crisis" legislators to attack it wouldn't be wise if you want to take it over.

Most likely it's people wanting to make money off those that want the THC high without the plant based transfer method because they won't smell like they just smoked a joint, and that would lend itself to kids as well as folks that are hooked on the high of THC in states where it's not legal yet.

Penis size comparisons aside, there is a problem in the market, how the politicians react will decide how it's regulated.

In reality it's not Big Tobacco, or upset noses at having vape blown at them, it's the people that wanted THC in their vape creating the black market demand have determined that it's going to be regulated.

So In the news today..

[IMG]https://i.iheart.com/v3/re/new_assets/5d9609054d63726ddd7c1d66?ops=max(650,0),quality(80)[/IMG]

Mysterious Vaping Illness May Be The Result of 'Toxic Chemical Burns'
posted by R.J. Johnson - @rickerthewriter - Oct 3, 2019

Link



Pathologists examining the mysterious lung illness that has sickened more than 800 people across the country say toxic chemical burns may be the culprit, according to images and an analysis published in the New England Journal of Medicine on Wednesday.

The results come after the authors of the study examined lung biopsy samples from 17 patients who had been diagnosed with the vaping-related illness. Pathologists believe that the illness "represents a form of airway-centered chemical pneumonitis from one or more inhaled toxic substances."

Images of lung tissue published by researchers showed severe chemical injuries after the patients had vaped unknown substances. The top right image shows a cutaway of a person's airway with the pink circular structure representing the airway wall. Healthy airways have nothing in the middle of that structure, which allows air to flow easily. However, researchers said the lung tissues they examined showed that the patients had widespread inflammation and injuries which inhibited the flow of air.

"What appears to be going on in the lung itself is a direct toxic chemical injury, like a chemical fume injury or a poisonous gas injury," Dr. Brandon Larsen, an author of the study and a surgical pathologist at the Mayo Clinic in Scottsdale, Arizona, told NBC News. "It looks like the kind of injury that we normally see when a person is exposed to a spilled drum of toxic chemicals at their workplace."

So far, 805 cases of the vaping-illness have been confirmed by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, with twelve people having died from complications arising from the disease. Most of the patients studied by the Mayo Clinic were men, between the ages of 19 and 67. Nearly three-quarters of those had vaped marijuana or cannabis oil. So far, public health investigators haven't been able to determine any one ingredient or substance that's been linked to all the lung injury cases.

In response to the rash of cases across the country, the CDC is urging people to immediately stop vaping e-cigarettes or vaping products that contain THC.

"Some patients have reported that their symptoms developed over a few days, while others have reported that their symptoms developed over several weeks," the CDC said on its website. "A pulmonary infection does not appear to be causing the symptoms, which have generally not improved with antibiotic treatment alone."

The CDC says:

Youth and young adults should not use e-cigarette products.
Women who are pregnant should not use e-cigarette products.
Adults who do not currently use tobacco products should not start using e-cigarette products.
If you do use e-cigarette products, you should not buy these products off the street (for example, e-cigarette products with THC or other cannabinoids).
You should not modify e-cigarette products or add any substances to these products that are not intended by the manufacturer.
Adult smokers who are attempting to quit should use evidence-based treatments, including counseling and FDA-approved medications. If you need help quitting tobacco products, including e-cigarettes, contact your doctor or other medical provider.

quote:

Originally posted by ensigmatic:
I don't know as there's a conspiracy on the part of Big Tobacco. (Btw: I've read Big Pharma is invested in vape products, too.) But I do find it somewhat suspicious that, other than a couple well-identified issues (*), vaping had been regarded as relatively benign (**) until just recently.

Now, all-of-a-sudden and out of nowhere: OMG! Children are vaping! It's an epidemic! And OMG! People are dying! We have to DO SOMETHING!

The bolded portion is not the case. For those of us who work with kids, this is something we've been talking about concertedly for at least four or five years. Some places may have caught onto the kids sooner, but it's by no means a "newly identified" epidemic.

What does seem to be the "new" portion is the very direct evidence of how devastating some of these concoctions are to the lungs at a much faster rate than cigarettes are/were damaging. For example, a local kid is/was on life support in need of a lung transplant. His lungs looked like swiss cheese. As I understand it, he absolutely used vape products to excess and he was doing the THC thing, but his lungs were literally killed faster than if he had been smoking the equivalent amount of cigarettes per day...and in fact, he probably wouldn't have been able to physically smoke that many cigs without getting ill.

quote:

Originally posted by Oat_Action_Man:

quote:

Originally posted by ensigmatic:Now, all-of-a-sudden and out of nowhere: OMG! Children are vaping! It's an epidemic! And OMG! People are dying! We have to DO SOMETHING!

The bolded portion is not the case. For those of us who work with kids, this is something we've been talking about concertedly for at least four or five years.

Have you also been talking about how few kids are smoking in the last four or five years? Because the comments I'm seeing have been along the lines of "I hardly ever see a kid with a cigarette any more."

E.g.: Teen Smoking Is Way Down. But What About E-cigs?

quote:

Rates of cigarette smoking among high school students has dropped to lowest level in 22 years, the CDC reports.

That was in 2014. So: Youth and Tobacco Use

quote:

Current (past 30 day) use of e-cigarettes went up among middle and high school students from 2011 to 2018.

Past studies have shown that vaping is up to ten times less toxic than smoking.

quote:

Originally posted by Oat_Action_Man:
What does seem to be the "new" portion is the very direct evidence of how devastating some of these concoctions are to the lungs at a much faster rate than cigarettes are/were damaging. For example, a local kid is/was on life support in need of a lung transplant. His lungs looked like swiss cheese. As I understand it, he absolutely used vape products to excess and he was doing the THC thing, ...

If he'd huffed aerosol paint would you be in favour of banning the sale of all aerosol paint? I suspect not. No, instead what we've done is disallowed the sale of spray paint to minors.

I don't have an issue with keeping kids away from vaping. What I do have an issue with is banned adult use, and particularly watching government officials and the dominant "news" media lying about the situation.

Btw: He almost certainly wasn't vaping legitimate THC. It was almost certainly black market stuff. He might as well have been vaping paint.