quote:

Originally posted by fritz:

quote:

Originally posted by ensigmatic:
I would be so bold as to suggest vaping is probably little, if any, more harmful than breathing the air in many modern urban areas.

And what methodology do you have to back up this suggestion? Longitudinal study? Double blind study?

I can give you my own account. I gave up cigs in 2011 for vaping. Not only do I spend a ton less on vaping vs cigs, my health has improved significantly. I’m not sick every winter and hacking all the time otherwise. My BP is now normal. Overall I make fewer trips to the doctor for respiratory related colds and chest problems. I’ll take my own account over any study you wish to conduct. I may be outside the norm though. I may die in 10 years from some unforeseen problem caused by vaping. I may die of cancer, a car wreck, or whatever in the meantime too.


My wife has had the same experience. As have people I work with that introduced me to vaping.

To the OPs point, I don’t vape in public, at work, or enclosed spaces where other people are present. It’s rude for one thing. I wouldn’t want them farting around me either. So I keep it to myself.

People vaping Black market crap with THC or whatever are asking for it. It’s part of the risks of living in a free country.

quote:

Originally posted by fritz:
Facts? Seriously? You show no longitudinal or double blind studies on the vaping's effects on humans. You state you're swagging your thoughts. You state that vaping is probably no more injurious than breathing urban air.

If all you're going to do no more than focus on the one thing I wrote that was clearly a SWAG--which I subsequently clarified, ignore the factual stuff I posted, and assert I wrote things I never wrote, then we cannot have a discussion.

quote:

Originally posted by ensigmatic:
then we cannot have a discussion.

OK -- back to vaping is dumb

^^^^ This

Well then, vape smart and it's all good.

OK, this is all settled, then?

Would you like to hear the opinion of a neutral observer? Vaping in itself is not harmful or unsafe; it's what you vape that makes it harmful or unsafe. I don't trust the corrupt news media one single bit and if your opinions about this controversy were formed by what they told you, you should stop, and do your own research.

Vaping has become extremely popular. It stands to reason that unscrupulous people will take advantage of this popularity by dumping black-market vaping liquids into an otherwise safe market. Somehow, I get the impression that China is involved. Just my opinion. Vaping is better than smoking, and there is an answer to these deaths which the FRENZIED news whores are ignoring because it is to their advantage to get people all worked up. That's all the news media is good for- dividing, confusing and agitating people, with their bullshit agenda.

I’ll continue posting informative articles, as they come to my attention, unless you want to lock the thread, Para.

If it needed to be locked, we wouldn't be talking in it right now. Civility is all I ask.

quote:

Originally posted by ensigmatic:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by jljones:
Yawn.

Right back at ya.

You lost any credibility you might otherwise have had, wrt this discussion, with "I don't know anything about it, don't understand it, and don't like it, so people who do it are dick-substitution-suckers."[/QUOTE.]

Jerry is an ex-Marine and an ex-Cop. As an ex-Marine he's accustomed to having what his opinion is on a matter supplied to him and not to question it. As an ex-Cop, he's accustomed to defaulting to an anti-liberty position on matters, unless it's a matter important to him.

Do you have reading comprehension issues? What did I say? Right here, on this very page, what did I say? You're gonna come out of nowhere with this? What's your problem? Do you just not give a shit?

I have to tell you that I find this quite ironic. You've no room to make that accusation of anyone else here.

I see you haven't posted in a very long time, except for a handful of lovely posts. Explain this to me, please. Are you bored?

I see a bit of logical inconsistency in this paragraph

quote:

Originally posted by fritz:

I must deal with everyone in the company as equals . . . I do what is possible to keep all interaction as brief as possible with these people, and at as much distance as possible.

In the interest of bringing more light than heat to the discussion, I submit the following for your consideration:

quote:

Monday, October 07, 2019
Utah Department of Health Concludes that THC Vape Cartridges are Causing Respiratory Disease Outbreak; Issues Specific Warning against Use of THC Oils

...the Utah Department of Health has issued a report which unequivocally concludes that vaping marijuana is causing severe respiratory illness, which has now affected 71 residents in the state.
...
The evidence presented in the report is overwhelming:

• Of 36 cases who reported on product usage, 34 (94%) admitted to vaping THC cartridges.
  
• Of 19 THC cartridges tested, 17 (89%) contained vitamin E acetate oil.
  
• No contaminants or abnormalities were detected in any of the 20 nicotine cartridges tested.
  
• Most of the THC cartridges were purchased illegally on the black market.
  
• At least one of four black market THC vape cart "brands" were mentioned by all 34 of the cases who reported using THC: Dank Vapes, Rove, Golden Gorilla, and Smart Cart.
  
• These brands are consistent with those reported by case patients in other states and with those confiscated in drug busts of large, illegal THC vape cart production operations.
  

Article: Utah Department of Health Concludes that THC Vape Cartridges are Causing Respiratory Disease Outbreak; Issues Specific Warning against Use of THC Oils

There've been other reports, since that one was issued (note the date), that suggest the CDC and the FDA both are beginning to (grudgingly) concede that the causes of lung illnesses have been primarily, if not entirely, due to using black market products, usually THC-infused.

Personally, I've yet to have seen a single report of the use of a legitimate vaping product resulting in lung disease.

quote:

Originally posted by V-Tail:
I see a bit of logical inconsistency in this paragraph

quote:

Originally posted by fritz:
I must deal with everyone in the company as equals . . . I do what is possible to keep all interaction as brief as possible with these people, and at as much distance as possible.

As management, I must listen to all personnel who questions or comments. I must engage in conversion and give adequate feedback. That's that equality aspect.

Once that is done, the interaction can end. And it will end with those who smell of cigarettes or weed. But the interaction has a strong possibility of continuing with those with clothes and breath that doesn't reek.

No, that's not true equality -- it's life. But the employees understand that they all get their time on the podium. And they respect that.

The following is from the US CDC on 10/8/19. Evidently they provide vaping updates every Thursday. Updates are readily found by searching for "CDC vape update" on the web.

"CDC today announced the updated number of confirmed and probable lung injury cases and deaths associated with the use of e-cigarette, or vaping, products.

Patients with Lung Injury

As of October 8, 2019, 1,299 confirmed and probable lung injury cases associated with use of e-cigarette, or vaping, products were reported by 49 states, the District of Columbia, and the U.S. Virgin Islands.
Among 573 patients with information on substances used in e-cigarette, or vaping, products in the 90 days prior to symptom onset:
76% reported using THC-containing products, with or without nicotine-containing products;
32% reported exclusive use of THC-containing products;
58% reported using nicotine-containing products, with or without THC-containing products; and
13% reported exclusive use of nicotine-containing products.

Among 1,043 patients with data on age and sex:
70% of patients are male.
80% of patients are under 35 years old.
15% are under 18 years old
21% are 18 to 20 years old.
18% are 21 to 24 years old.
26% are 25 to 34 years old.
20% are 35 years or older.

Deaths
26 deaths have been confirmed in 21 states: Alabama, California (3), Connecticut, Delaware, Florida, Georgia (2), Illinois, Indiana, Kansas (2), Massachusetts, Michigan, Minnesota, Mississippi, Missouri, Nebraska, New Jersey, New York, Oregon (2), Pennsylvania, Texas, and Virginia.
The median age of patients who have died is 49 years, ranging from 17 to 75 years old."

******
The full USA numbers reported show the majority of the lung injuries are caused by THC products. But 13% were caused by people who stated they only used nicotine-based products.

Thanks for that CDC info. I did not know that.

quote:

Originally posted by fritz:
The full USA numbers reported show the majority of the lung injuries are caused by THC products.

The overwhelming majority.

quote:

Originally posted by fritz:
But 13% were caused by people who stated they only used nicotine-based products.

There are illegitimate products independent of the THC issue. E.g.: Colorado Lab Results Point to New Culprit in Vaping Cases: A Specific Chemical Used in Cheap Vape Pens

quote:

A new study by a Colorado lab points to a new potential culprit in the nationwide wave of lung injuries caused by vaping: a rare disease caused by inhalation of a chemical present in many cheap vape pens that is used to fuse metals together.

Secondly: I question the value of self-reporting in this case. I don't think it unreasonable to suspect that some number of that 13% merely would not admit to having vaped illegitimate THC products.

I am curious about this: ISTM if the CDC was really interested in getting to the bottom of this, they'd pursue the question with that 13% vigorously. Maybe they are, but they haven't publicly stated so. And if they're not: Why are they not?

quote:

Secondly: I question the value of self-reporting in this case. I don't think it unreasonable to suspect that some number of that 13% merely would not admit to having vaped illegitimate THC products.

Without including the 'self-reporting' you don't really have much of a data set to evaluate. You would be limited to examining the lung tissue of only those cases resulting in death, which is only 2% of those affected, based on the numbers from the CDC....Not much to go on!

Once again, the CDC is not the final authority of universal medical truth. They may not be Snopes or the SPLC yet, that day may come...

Also, there is wide variance among nic vapers in power applied to ejuices and concentrations of nic within ejuices. There may well be a price to pay for massive excess.

quote:

Originally posted by nhracecraft:

quote:

Secondly: I question the value of self-reporting in this case. I don't think it unreasonable to suspect that some number of that 13% merely would not admit to having vaped illegitimate THC products.

Without including the 'self-reporting' you don't really have much of a data set to evaluate. You would be limited to examining the lung tissue of only those cases resulting in death, which is only 2% of those affected, based on the numbers from the CDC....Not much to go on!

True, but no information is better than bad information, in my view. Particularly when that bad information is used to guide action.

A study of two states:

Gov. Ron DeSantis, of Florida, had the right idea, IMO (from a couple weeks back):

quote:

“If the run-of-the mill products (are) dangerous, then that’s something people need to know,” DeSantis said. “If it’s more the bootleg stuff, that’s important because if you try to ban the stuff that you can buy in a store and people really want to do it, they may go to the bootleg. I think all those are questions that need to be answered.”

Contrast that to Mich. Gov. Gretchen Whitmer (aka: "Jennifer Granholm the Second"), who made Michigan the very first state to ban flavored e-liquids containing nicotine.

One Michigan House Rep., when he queried Michigan's Dept. of Health and Human Services about their studies of vaping habits, found they were surprised to learn, from said Rep., that the vast majority of adult vapers vaped flavoured e-liquids. It was this agency's "data" and recommendations upon which Whitmer based her executive action.

Btw: So how did sellers react to Granholm's flavour ban? Well, one chain is now selling flavored e-liquids w/o nicotine, and separate "nic shots." Another store is selling e-liquid with whatever level of nicotine you want, up to 100mg/ml (that's a lot of nic!) so you can add it to other products' flavoured e-liquids. What could possibly go wrong with that plan?

quote:

Originally posted by ensigmatic:
True, but no information is better than bad information, in my view.

If that's the case, then you should throw the Utah Dept of Health numbers you listed above on page 9. The reporting methodology is the same.

quote:

Originally posted by Johnny 3eagles:
They claimed they didn't vape Marijuana because they did and were hiding it. Be real.

I posted this on Sept 27 and believe it still holds true.