quote:

Covid is a real disease, and it not only kills bunches of people, but it also seriously disables people who eventually recover, but can take months. Caring for these patients is resource intensive.

Are these patients being offered early treatments that have been proven to be highly effective in other countries? Or are they being told to stay home until they can't breathe anymore - and then check in to the ER?

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Originally posted by Lefty Sig:

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Originally posted by marksman41:

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Originally posted by Lefty Sig:
Some vaccines work well with one shot, some need multiple shots, some need periodic shots for your whole life. The fact that COVID vaccines are not 100% effective, or need more than one shot, or may need boosters later on is not particularly surprising to me.

Hell, I've flown on local airlines in China and India, high speed trains in China, and have ridden in taxis, private cars, and other ground transportation in the insane traffic and chaos of many large cities in Asia. Pretty sure my risk of death in a transport related accident is higher than from COVID or a vaccine.

It sounds like you are for mandatory vaccination. Was that the point you were trying to make?

No it doesn't "sound like" I said anything supporting mandates, because I didn't. I said, for me, the risk of other things in my life is higher than the risk of the vaccine so that was my choice. I also do not agree with stating that "vaccines don't work" because of the reasons given.

The irony is that COVID mortality risk is actually very low for most people. Almost all of the deaths are in older people with multiple confounding risk factors. But the general population has been scared into thinking it is 10-100x worse than it really is. Polls regularly show people overestimate the risk by orders magnitude.

The mortality risk from any of the vaccines is also very low. Statistically, for most people the choice is indifferent - 99.9% of people aren't going to die from COVID and aren't going to die from a vaccine. But for some people there is a better choice one way or another and those choices should be respected. Young people with zero mortality risk of COVID do not need vaccines. Elderly people with confounding factors are better off getting vaccinated and probably getting booster shots.

The problem with the data is almost no one is reporting it honestly. Unless you look at rates of vaccination as a function of age and confounding factors and rates of hospitalization and death with respect to age, confounding factors, and vaccination status, you are not seeing the full story. You can cut the data any way you want and use a few calculations to imply the data says whatever you want it to say.

Your previous post read like a passive-aggressive piece against people not wanting the jab, which is why I asked for clarification before proceeding further. From the above I gather you are pro-freedom of choice rather than pro-mandate by govt./employer.

quote:

Originally posted by a1abdj:


That's a great point! I wonder if there are any differences? Let's see!

Yellow fever vaccine has been around for over 80 years.

Yellow fever vaccine is a traditional vaccine made from an actual weakened source of the virus.

Most people get lifelong protection from a single shot.

Since it was introduced in 1936, there have been just 62 confirmed cases and 35 deaths from vaccine-associated viscerotropic disease, according to a 2016 study.

Essentially the exact same thing. No idea why one would have a problem with one but not the other.

Well, let's see... How about this little scenario:
Because I want you to get the shot! I'm telling you too! I'm going to impose my will upon you one way or another. If you don't do what the fuck I say, I'll make your life miserable! You won't be able to go out in public anymore, you'll probably loose your job, and I'll make damn sure that if you don't do what the fuck I want, I'll let everyone else know that YOU are the one that's responsible for millions of deaths. All because you resist! I'll treat you like a leper! Now put your mask on and do what I tell you to! Wait, you can take your mask off... Hold on, no you can't. Uhh, now you can. Nope, time to take it off. Oh, I said "take it off", I meant "put it back on", as a matter of fact, put two on!

Love, hugs and kisses,
The Left!
(PS- the next step is us sewing on an emblem to your jacket to point out how you're the unclean one... I don't know, maybe something like a "star"...)


That's pretty much why people are rebelling against this shit. Do you want this government, or any government imposing their will upon you? Not only that, Yellow Fever, and the vaccine, the FACTS are pretty clear.

The FACTS on "Da Rona", "Woo-Flu", "Chi-com Cough" or whatever you want to call it... Show me whatever "facts" you have, and in under a minute, there's going to be someone with "proof" refuting whatever "facts" you came up with.

Its not the division over the vaccine that amazes me, its the way ordinary people are driven by the media that's truly astounding.
The vaccine could have been introduced and Biden's administration could have said, "Here it is, take it if you want or don't, whatever you decide. Then the media could have echoed that.
In that scenario, most people wouldn't be the wild eyed, hysterical vaccine Nazis they are now. Same thing with the masks.
All it takes is a talking point and its the collective creed by the next day.
Of course, if Trump were in office the left would be demanding that the deadly vaccines be pulled off the market and Trump imprisoned for mass murder.

No doubt the real problem is sharing a country with actual leftists...it isn't sustainable, but the alternative is going to be bad.

quote:

Originally posted by marksman41:
Your previous post read like a passive-aggressive piece against people not wanting the jab, which is why I asked for clarification before proceeding further. From the above I gather you are pro-freedom of choice rather than pro-mandate by govt./employer.

OK thanks for clarifying. I had written some other stuff that expanded on things but it was too wordy and off topic from the issue of vaccination related to air travel so I deleted it. But I probably removed some stuff that would have made my position more clear.

My entire point is that for most of us, there isn't much risk either way. COVID is not risky enough to the general population to warrant all of these mandates, especially for young people. But the vaccines are also not as risky as some are asserting. For most people it doesn't really matter what they do.

However I do understand that the amount of lies we've been told by "public health experts" has passed the point of destroying their credibility and many people have reached the point of "no more".

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I will once again step in it in this debate. I am sick and tired of the politicization of this pandemic...

-I do not believe that this vaccine should be mandated by the government. I do believe that employers may look at their labor force and determine that it is in the employer’s interest to insure that they will not be losing significant numbers of employees to illness and quarantine. How that can best be done is debatable, it could be through vaccination, confirmation of immunity through antibody testing, or daily pre-shift COVID testing. Currently, vaccination would be least costly, however, employers must consider who they may lose fighting against their mandate if they go that route. We tend to be conservative/libertarian in views as a group, and support right-to-work policies. That implies that we support an employer’s right to chose who will work for them as well, correct?

Nope.
You say you do not believe that this vaccine should be mandated by the government.
That is what is happening. Government, through force or coercion, is using the power of government to mandate this vaccine.

The notice of this requirement may be coming to you through your employer, but make no mistake: your employer is only the messenger. The mandates are forced or coerced through the power of government.

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Originally posted by Lefty Sig:
But the vaccines are also not as risky as some are asserting. For most people it doesn't really matter what they do.

How can you assert this? Do you know the CFR rules & regulations around vaccine approvals by the FDA and historical discrepancies? How about clinical study designs? Post-market surveys of BLAs?

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Originally posted by Dakor:
How can you assert this? Do you know the CFR rules & regulations around vaccine approvals by the FDA and historical discrepancies? How about clinical study designs? Post-market surveys of BLAs?

Yep, and I'll take this opportunity to repeat that neither Moderna nor Pfizer have matched controls any longer as they unblinded their study groups and offered the treatment (vaccine) to the control subjects. This is a clear violation of study protocols and would never be tolerated by the government or scientific community under any other circumstance.

As we previously outlined, this is not about vaccines per se’, this is more about a slippery slope of having the government dictate how you can live your life and earn a living.

If they can force you to have a medical procedure, and then carry documentation of that procedure in order to work… why can’t they force you to get a small electronic implant of your identification, which would coincidentally include your medical authorizations for work?

It’s just a metal detector…. it’s just taking off your shoes… it’s just wearing a mask…. it’s just a vaccination….. it’s just a COVID passport… it’s always, “just”.

Factually I do not believe a federal mandate for a vaccine is even possible or legal. It appears to me that all of Biden’s threats in this regard are simply that, threats.

The purpose of the threat is to push people to take the vaccine without actually attempting a legal federal mandate; and that approach so far has been successful. However, now they are going to encounter the more hard-core groups who will not concede liberty or freedom to a federal mandate.

It is obvious Anthony Fauci also knows a federal mandate will lose in court when challenged. The fact that Fauci brings up state vaccination requirements for education, as examples of historically forced vaccinations is both a strawman argument and structurally false. There has never been a FEDERAL mandate for any vaccination. All the vaccinations Fauci discusses (ex. his kids) were state mandates. Each state also has a different set of standards and laws for children and vaccines. There is nothing federal.

The federal government is attempting to set up a federal work authorization standard for private businesses. Non compliance means you cannot work, or you lose your existing job if your employer goes along with the government demand. THAT alone should alarm everyone.

There is a particularly enraging irony in that Joe Biden’s federal DOJ and Dept of Labor do not enforce employment eligibility authorization for illegal aliens based on legal status, while at the same time the Biden Dept. of Labor is putting OSHA in charge of a federal policy that will enforce vaccination requirements. Go figure.

All of the federal exemptions essentially undermine the “national health emergency” argument, because if there really was such a public health emergency, there would be no exemptions at all. The application of the executive order undermines the actual cornerstone of the executive order itself. It cannot withstand scrutiny…. hence, Biden doesn’t actually put any rules or regulations into writing because that gives lawsuits something specific to file injunctions against.

In the interim, as the freedom coalition digs in to mount a patriotic challenge, the authoritarian attempt of the federal government, the rebellious alliance is hitting back in unique ways as noted by the Southwest Airline pilots and Air Traffic Controllers, both groups hold a significant military service record.

Another group who are pushing back against the federal effort are local law enforcement. Again, another private sector group that has a heavy percentage of former military service members amid the ranks.

The blue-collar effort to bolster the resistance by these groups does not have to be too massive to have an impact. Remember, almost all of these leftists and elite-minded communists who now operate as Democrats have no capacity for self-sufficiency. If the working class stops picking up their trash; stops mowing their lawns, shopping for them, doing their cleaning and essentially facilitating their lives, this entire group of people cannot function.

https://theconservativetreehou...andates/#more-218256

CPD SIG - I believe a1abdj was being sarcastic and you and he are on the same page.

Sometimes our sarcasm meters need calibration.

quote:

Remember, almost all of these leftists and elite-minded communists who now operate as Democrats have no capacity for self-sufficiency.

I think this is where a big chunk of the fun is going to be coming from. The elites and the "experts" have said so many different and contradictory things that people have lost the habit of simply believing them and going along with that they say. In their own little way, the Kung Flu and the internutz are 'democratizing' medicine in ways the big shots never expected and are now finding that they actually cannot control.

This is all happening when the grass roots of both the Democrat and Republican parties have been in open and committed conflict with their respective party elites for some years.

Those who take pride in never getting their hands dirty with the ordinary buisness of everyday life have thoroughly pissed off those who earn a living by getting their hands dirty with the ordinary buisness of everyday life and have discovered that there's every reason to be proud of that.

Its a side issue in the debate over the Kung Flu, of course, and may not be quite as important as blocking the 'Rona-related attempts by the elites to seize more power, but look out: when the mocha latte/premium health care/homeowner in San Francisco or Manhattan crowd discover they can't get a flight, can't see a nurse practitioner at a 24-hour clinic, can't consistently get electricity from generation plants that can't get a steady supply of fuel, can't drop off the kid at daycare, can't get a toilet fixed, and can't get groceries trucked in from the country, then we may finally be looking at a fundamental realignment of politics in this country in the sense that no elites take the grass roots for granted anymore.

It's not like they can complain about it either. The coal miners did their best to explain all this to Hillary five years ago, but the only thing Hillary was listening to was some whiz kid with an algorithm.

Will it last? Maybe not. People who earn a living have a living to earn and a life to live, while inertia and a certain perversity will always suck elites back up into the soothing comfort of their own assholes. But it looks like the point of the elites' dependence on everyone else will be made yet again before this is all over. In the meantime, I'm looking forward to seeing footage of some New York City stock broker trying to figure out how to cut the sphincter out of a dead squirrel in Central Park without piercing the intestines.

I'm not taking the vaccine. I have not nor will I ever put on one of those stupid, pointless masks. You're not going to make me feel guilty. You're not going to brow-beat me into doing things I have decided are either dangerous or pointless.

I'm glad all those flights are cancelled and I hope thousand and thousands more flights get cancelled. I hope air travel at Thanksgiving and Christmas is all but impossible.

I'm glad there are shortages of all kinds of goods which are normally plentiful. I hope these shortages become severe.

Who is responsible for all of this? The people who have decided this virus is worth shutting down the world- they are the ones responsible, and I hope they end up getting hung from tree branches by the people they are torturing with this monumentally stupid shit.

This situation is going to have to get worse before it gets better and I am prepared to do without certain things and to be inconvenienced every day, for as long as it takes for these fools to figure out that we are not going to allow them to dictate what we put into our bodies.

They are not going to win and we are not going to lose. They should be sure to let us know when they have had enough. We- the people who are not fascist assholes or gullible, scared sheep- are in for the long haul. Do your worst, and in the end, you will lose and you will suffer for your crimes against society.

Amen brother…

Para's post above mine explains my thoughts and feelings on the matter and I see no need to further expound or clarify.

Many men, better than I, have died for the freedoms people are now willfully giving up. I can honor that sacrifice by putting on my big boy pants for times made hard by tyrant elites. Wouldn't be the first time in human history. Likely won't be the last.

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Originally posted by barndg00:
That implies that we support an employer’s right to chose who will work for them as well, correct?

I’d go along with the employer’s right to choose who works for him. I’m a little sketchy on the employer being able to discriminate on medical status/condition. At what point does it lead to a slippery slope toward something Gattica like? If it becomes okay to ask about this one thing, is it okay to also require your A1C and a lipid panel to factor into the hiring or retention decision? How ‘bout a full genetic workup to see if there might be any ticking time bombs lurking?

quote:

but it's going to be terrible and terrific at the same time.

Oh man, what a great line. I do believe it's coming.

In my opinion:

Regardless of what the pilots are saying, not many of them will allow themselves to be fired as they have too much to lose.

The Captains have too much time in to give up their benefits and retirement, so some will retire, but the rest will get the vaccine.

The senior co-pilots will also get the vaccine, and maybe the junior ones will take the firing and maybe not.

Same is going to be true of Flight attendants. Senior ones will go along to get along, junior ones may or may not.

Edited to add:

These people should think about what happened to the Air Traffic Controllers when Reagan was president. They all got fired and replaced and that can happen here also.

quote:

Originally posted by chellim1:
Nope.
You say you do not believe that this vaccine should be mandated by the government.
That is what is happening. Government, through force or coercion, is using the power of government to mandate this vaccine.

The notice of this requirement may be coming to you through your employer, but make no mistake: your employer is only the messenger. The mandates are forced or coerced through the power of government.

Is there actually a real government mandate now, or is it still just that lying urine-soaked relic’s (USR) press release? My understanding was that the USR made the announcement but not the mandate so there was nothing that could be legally contested. Businesses that were inclined to mandate could do so and blame the “government mandate” for forcing them to do it, but there really was no mandate. Has that changed?

quote:

Originally posted by marksman41:
CPD SIG - I believe a1abdj was being sarcastic and you and he are on the same page.

Sometimes our sarcasm meters need calibration.

Yeah, having read one or two of Frank’s (a1abdj’s) posts, there was no way I could take the referenced post as anything but sarcasm.