quote:

Originally posted by MikeGLI:

quote:

Originally posted by hudr:
I am a DoD employee.
I am 10 years from retirement.
I have myself and 3 kids on BC/BS Federal.
I have a few chronic (read, expensive) conditions.
One of my kids is type one diabetic.

I can replace the paycheck. The benefits? Not so much.

What do I do?

You do whats best for you and your family.

There's "doing what's best for you and your family"
Then there's getting forced into doing something you and your family don't want to do.

The option of saying "fuck this, I quit" isn't on everyone's table.

quote:

Originally posted by parabellum:
No one is making a statement. We're just exercising out right to self-determination when it comes to what we do or do not choose to put in our bodies. You can try to reduce this to partisan politics, but that's what the leftists are doing. Informed consent. Remember those words.

I like using the phrase "My body, my choice"
It kinda pisses them off when you use their own words against them.

quote:

Originally posted by mutedblade:
There is no precedent for any of this and it will take years, likely decades to see "legal" results.

Three thoughts -

- the more widespread the problem, the lower the probability that it will take decades to work its way through the courts

- depending on the relevant law (companies incorporate where they do for many reasons), a stay may be available

- both not showing up for work and going to court are, in their own ways, methods of negotiating

quote:

Originally posted by old rugged cross:

What about places like the Scandinavia countries, India, Africa, All of Asia, the Mediterranean. The Middle East, Russia, Europe. So what about the globe? How bad is it?

Bad. I'm in all those places. Regularly. And south and central America. Southeast Asia. China. The pacific. Korea. Vietnam. Yada, yada. The restrictions in most countries are considerably more than they are in the US, as are the restrictions on travel.

quote:

Originally posted by old rugged cross:
You seem to know everything.

Don't be an ass. I said no such thing. I do get out and about, however, for a living, and do see more than what's on the news, regardless of the flavor.

In a thread about airline travel, this regards airline travel, and in the direction the thread has taken, it also regards job actions taken by airline employees, specifically pilots and flight crew, regarding the decision to vaccinate or not.

quote:

Originally posted by old rugged cross:
I do not give a rats ass what those airline employees contract says. Good for them for resisting more bullshit being thrown at them. It is way past time to say enough is enough.

You wouldn't give a rats ass, as you don't work for an airline. This isn't about a contract, however. Pilots who are in a shop, where they are governed by the union contract, are also governed by the Railway Labor Act, under which they're unionized, and the associated laws. These laws are very clear about job actions. Unapproved job actions are not legal; one can't simply go out on a strike. One can't simply walk off the job, and one can't simply organize a sick-out. These constitute valid reasons, legal reasons, to fire the employee. If a pilot or flight crew member acts illegally, then there's no recourse to seek that job back, or correct the issue, and once one has been fired in this industry, it's often a lifetime indictment, and a career ender. Given that one may have spent 20 years just to get there to get started, it's not something to toss in the trash lightly.

Abandonment of the aircraft or the assignment without a valid legal reason can have long term (lifelong) repercussions for those involved, and that little act of protest is unlikely to bring change. It's the suicide of a career for no gain. There are other means, but walking off the job without a legal leg up on which to stand, is not one of them, regardless of what part of the rat you give.

There are ways to say enough, but cancelling a thousand flights is not one of them, nor is it professional, or responsible.

quote:

Originally posted by Rightwire:
What do people think is going to happen when the airlines fire or suspend XX % of their pilots and flight crews?

What are.... cancelled flights?

People just got a taste of what is coming.

We've got a nice little shit-show brewing here in Chicago.
Mayor lightfoot thinks it's suggestions are supreme edicts to be followed. She wasn't too successful when the police department (mostly, because there's always a few idiots) refused to dispurse crowds, and break up parties, close down bars...
Now she'll pissed because the police union is fighting her on getting this mandatory shot, and really pissed when it was pointed out that it was against the law here in Illinois...

Now it's scare tactics.
Get the shot, or go into an unpaid status.
Oh, if you get the shot, everyone is going to get an extra "personal day" (free day off), with the exception of the police.

With an already out of control crime rate, how bad on a scale of Detroit to Somalia do you think Chicago is going to get with 500, 1000, 1500 cops staying home because we're not getting paid?

Oh, call in the Nat Guard... There's 3 on my watch that are in the National Guard. They already said that they'll show up to the Armory, but that's it.

Fire all the nurses in NY, and have the National Guard take over? How many of NG Medics are nurses, Fire Dept, Dr's in "real life"? How's that shit going to work out?

"Bad" huh. Well gee, thanks for the insight. "Travel restrictions", again very insightful.

You have established yourself here as a know it all. You have earned it.

If airline employees are being threatened with termination if they don't comply. Well, a sick out or whatever you want to call it. Not being allowed in their contract is special and I suppose they should comply with it before they get terminated. According to you.

quote:

Originally posted by sns3guppy:
The restrictions in most countries are considerably more than they are in the US, as are the restrictions on travel.

Aside from this, I couldn't care less about getting vaxxed. But I have a lot of friends and family around the globe and I like to visit them regularly. My last trip abroad was to China in late 2019. This is as long as I've gone in decades without traveling abroad. And I really want to go to Europe in a few weeks to see some friends while Mrs. Lee is away. But that would require getting vaxxed. And I'm not sure I'm willing to deal with whatever restrictions are commonplace in the EU, even if vaxxed. This whole thing sucks.

quote:

Originally posted by old rugged cross:
"Bad" huh. Well gee, thanks for the insight. "Travel restrictions", again very insightful.

You have established yourself here as a know it all. You have earned it.

If airline employees are being threatened with termination if they don't comply. Well, a sick out or whatever you want to call it. Not being allowed in their contract is special and I suppose they should comply with it before they get terminated. According to you.

Okay, be an asshole.

I'll defer to your understanding of labor law as it relates to the airline environment and the industry. From the perspective of a shop steward and business agent, tell me about it, please.

Have you been to all those locations on a regular basis, then? Love to hear your input, especially current, daily experience. Not bad?

The current events will play out, and the fall out will be what it will be. If you happen to have a ticket to ride, good luck.

It won't be me stranding you, however. There's a very high improbability that you'd be on anything I'm operating, but if you are, it won't be me stranding you somewhere on the globe to make a statement.

Something that was tried with quite a bit of success, by various operators during the pandemic, was adjusting pay. When the pandemic was kicking off, cargo airlines began operating at a significantly increased tempo, while passenger flights dropped off substantially, especially internationally. With the increased operations, the immediate problem was a lot of crew who didn't want to go international and risk contracting the virus. The Cargo operators began offering an override for operating (some directed their employees who didn't want to go, to take their sick days, then stay home with no pay).

The amount varied, but significant increases were had by many operators: a financial incentive to go fly. Companies may elect to pursue a similar tactic for shots; I have no idea how they'll tackle it. I do know pilots who are quite adamant that they'll walk away if a vaccine is required, many others who have been vaccinated, and those who will get vaccinated.

I didn't get vaccinated because I was told to. I got vaccinated because I chose to. Those who choose not to will have to take the course that they feel is best, that they are compelled to take, or make the stand they're willing to make. I've had every vaccination available of which I'm aware, and didn't hesitate with this one either; presently it may be the most tested of any vaccine development ever performed, given the numbers who are presently vaccinated, and the data that continues to pour in. I'm not concerned. For those who are: they have a decision to make.

quote:

Originally posted by Rick Lee:

Aside from this, I couldn't care less about getting vaxxed. But I have a lot of friends and family around the globe and I like to visit them regularly. My last trip abroad was to China in late 2019. This is as long as I've gone in decades without traveling abroad. And I really want to go to Europe in a few weeks to see some friends while Mrs. Lee is away. But that would require getting vaxxed. And I'm not sure I'm willing to deal with whatever restrictions are commonplace in the EU, even if vaxxed. This whole thing sucks.

It sucks in every way.

China is a royal pain in the ass for travel right now. Even flying in and staying on board, it's a pain. I've done quite a few trips in and out without ever getting off the aircraft. To go out the door, even to walk around to to a postflight inspection, requires donning a biohazard suit, surrender of passport, being filmed, temperature and vitals taken, and frequently hosed down with some kind of disinfectant. Workers clothed the same come on board and spray floors, seats, sometimes people, sometimes soaking things with clorox and who knows what else. It's a pain. Going to a hotel is also a pain in the ass, to say nothing of getting back to the aircraft. We've been into numerous locations in China during the Pandemic, including Wuhan. I wouldn't be traveling to China presently, if I didn't have to go.

Way to show your true colors.

I never said I was an expert on labor laws or contracts, did I?

I never said I travel the globe regularly. You do, according to yourself. That is why I asked about what you referred to as the "global pandemic." And what is the situation in the countries across the globe. I do not know if they are "not bad."

We do know in the most modern and highly vaxxed countries of the US, Canada, Australia and Israel
according to media the virus is bad and more vaxxed is needed.

What about the less developed and populous countries who do not seem to have severe problems.


I have never said this virus is not serious. Never.

As I said, I support more non compliance of the draconian employer mandates until this non sense stops once and for all.

Those who pay attention will realize this isn't the first time that Blue9mm has embraced and shared his ignorance.

quote:

Originally posted by Blume9mm:
for years various industries required you have certain shots and get tested for different things ....now all of a sudden it becomes a big deal.

Yes, I call BS on it... bunch of nambie.... pambie wimps scared to get a little shot....

Of course you have the right to refuse.... go home and quit your job and when you get Covid, deal with it AT HOME. Don't be a burden or danger to others.

I've been vaccinated with all the time-tested standard vaccines since I was a kid. I've lost track of the number of injections of meds I've received over my lifetime. I've had blood drawn and so many IVs inserted I typically give the nurse the choice of "easy or difficult challenge" and point to where specifically they can stick the needle in me, depending on their response. (they always take the easy option).

I'm not afraid of needles...and yet, I have not taken any of the C-19 vaccines.

I met with my primary care doctor a couple months ago for another issue, but we had a long discussion about whether I should get vaccinated, and if so, with which vaccine. He understood my concerns and explained various medical aspects to the vaccines, without brow beating me over taking it and simply advising that they could bring any vaccine I wanted into the practice, if I made the decision to take it.

I was giving serious consideration to taking the C-19 vaccine, but only after waiting to see how others reacted to it. But the longer I waited the more the Biden government amped up the rhetoric and strong arm tactics, coupled with the incessant media hype over it, it became obvious that this vaccine is less about safety, and more about capitulation and falling into compliance, and political agenda manipulation and opportunism.

Why should the entire population be vaccinated when only some have serious risks of death? Why not inform those most vulnerable and allow them to assess their own risks and make their own decisions? If masks work, if vaccines work, why should the vaccinated care if I get COVID? Why should the vaccinated care if I die?

A couple weeks ago I went through a procedure, and recently been diagnosed with a serious life changing auto immune disease that will require potent prescription medications and possible surgery.

Until I know how I will react to the new medications, until I know if I will require surgery, until I know if there are any conflicts between whatever med(s) I end up on and the C-19 vaccine, why should I risk taking it?

...and it pisses the hell out of me that the Biden government and big corporations have conspired to strong arm citizens into taking a vaccine that some, such as myself, have serious concerns about. My doctors and I will decide what is best for me and only after I have sufficient evidence of the C-19 vaccine's long term safety, not the Biden government, and certainly not an ignorant nannyist twit like yourself.

As monkey man says, go inject yourself.

(damn, that really does belong on a T-shirt )

The harder they push, the harder I resist.

-------------------------

I say good on the SW pilots. The radical Marxist Progressive Left promotes division and disruption... so be it. Bring it on and let them taste it.

quote:

Originally posted by sns3guppy:

quote:

Originally posted by Hound Dog:


"For F***'s Sake."

....


For those pilots flying for operators who do considerable government work, I don't know how much the government will ultimately be able to enforce mandates, but the companies will do the policing in house. Personally, I don't much care if others get vaccinated or not. When it comes to a job action, which is illegal in a railway labor act setting, without an approval to strike, I won't engage in an illegal action to make a statement. It's unprofessional, and it's illegal.

My son was delayed on a SWA flight. Regardless of the cause, the passengers are expecting service. I dont' care the carrier or the company. One can have personal feelings, but it is unprofessional to impact the public service to express a personal bent.

The point is completely missed on you. Be it government mandates or them outsourcing enforcement of edicts to companies. Standing up for your beliefs is not unprofessional, and fuck whatever railway laws there are. It's easy to stand up when there are no consequences to it, it takes a man of conviction to put it all on the line.

You may look down upon your fellow pilots that make that ultimate decision based on the values/beliefs, not on their paychecks, I applaud them and can wait an extra week for xyz product or deal with a cancellation. This in not some silly political statement, it's a stand for freedom and one I've seen some on the left take as well.

It's this type of incremental bull shit that will have us looking back in 10 or 20 years asking ourselves "how did we get here?" You can't put the toothpaste back into the tube. Once freedom is lost, it's lost forever. I stand by anyone brave enough to stand up.

Just to be clear sn3sguppy pretends to be the expert on all things aviation but there are actually people who know things that he doesn’t.

Regarding Southwest - an organized job action by the pilots is clearly illegal. That is why the union went out of their way to say that there was no organized action. But a shitload of pilots on their own deciding “Yeah, I’m not flying that trip” is not necessarily a job action. The guys at AA got spanked by that back in the 90’s but that was more clearly a jab a management. Not sure how this will shake out but talking to my buddies at SWA the union sued the company but made it clear to just wait it out. What guys do on their own is their business.

Now if you want to see REAL disruptions see if FedEx or UPS mandate vaccines and watch the ramp workers bail out like rats off a sinking ship. The freight will stop moving in a heartbeat and the supply chains will be paralyzed. There is a reason why they have not moved like the passenger airlines with mandates.

I say the above statements even after being vaccinated. I was originally not going to take it, I did in the end way all of the risks and benefits of taking it and I chose to take it. Initially I didn't want to be a lab rat, so I waited, and allowed the higher risk people and early adopters to take it. After over 100,000,000 people had taken it, I was pretty confident I wasn't going to drop dead from it and got it. I would not take it today though as it's showing itself not to be effective and dangerous to a very small few. There is no way in hell anyone is going to force me to take it.

My employer has already set up a 'voluntary' website to upload our papers to. I've told my boss, between us, I've taken it, I'm not going to show anyone my papers and if it comes to it, you'll be down one employee. I've got an awesome job, in a great industry, one I spent months trying to get my foot in the door to. Sometimes you need to put your foot down and say I'm mad as hell and I'm not going to going to take it anymore!

If you pay close enough attention to my stance on this you've seen my evolution on the subject. When it was voluntary and presumed 96% effective, I said people were silly for not taking it the risks outweigh the benefits, just take it. The circumstances have changed. It's now, no longer voluntary and it's efficacy is questionable. Why would anyone take something that is not effective and potentially dangerous? If more evidence comes out or they make a safer more effective follow up vaccine, then I change my stance again. People need to be allowed free thought and the ability to make their own choices.

It is simply AMAZING how polarizing this issue is.

It shouldn't be. It should really show everyone how fragile our existence is.

I'm astounded by how entrenched each side is. Simply astounded.

quote:

Originally posted by KevinCW:
It is simply AMAZING how polarizing this issue is.

It shouldn't be. It should really show everyone how fragile our existence is.

I'm astounded by how entrenched each side is. Simply astounded.

Freedom vs. tyranny is about as polarizing as North vs. South. It cannot not be polarizing, when one side chooses freedom and just wants to be left alone, while the other side chooses to impose their tyrannical order on all. This virus, which has very high survival rate if you got it, has successfully been politicized by these tyrants into some kind of bogeyman that will wipe out mankind. Ridiculous.

I have discovered at work that the divisions over this isn't political, racial, religious or scientific.


Pretty much half of each demographic are divided over it.

Half the conservatives, half the democrats, half the black people, half the white, most of the Vietnamese won't, the only Muslims did.

Two of the unvaccinated got the covid and two of the vaccinated got the covid.

I have no faith that the vaccine is effective any longer. It's a massive failure that has been shoved onto the populous.

Just like the Spanish Flu of 1918, this virus will mutate itself into endemic or dormancy.

The number of supposedly intelligent people that are all in on the lies and forced actions over a virus with well under 1% mortality is truly astounding. Instead of feeling outrage at being LIED to over vaccine efficacy, at being LIED to about death number totals, LIED to about alternate treatments or prophylactic alternatives, LIED to about unvaccinated individuals somehow being responsible for vaccinated people getting sick…the LIES are blindingly evident and go on and on and on.

It is virtually IMPOSSIBLE to create an effective vaccine for a coronavirus. The fact that so many vaccinated people are getting sick is all the proof you need. It’s here to stay and crippling the economy by mandating vaccines that were rushed into production when it typically takes 7-12 years to become authorized should be a warning bell to people smarter than this.

This was NEVER about trying to cure something that is never going to be cured. From day one this was about power, control, and profit.

Logic left the building a long time ago with this hysteria. Mandating the jab was simply a political reaction to Biden's tanking poll numbers. I'm certainly not terrified of the hastily developed shot or the pathogen itself...I've taken my chances with both. We'll never get back the freedoms we've conceded though...we are lessened by this debacle.

quote:

This isn't about a contract, however. Pilots who are in a shop, where they are governed by the union contract, are also governed by the Railway Labor Act, under which they're unionized, and the associated laws. These laws are very clear about job actions. Unapproved job actions are not legal; one can't simply go out on a strike. One can't simply walk off the job, and one can't simply organize a sick-out. These constitute valid reasons, legal reasons, to fire the employee. If a pilot or flight crew member acts illegally, then there's no recourse to seek that job back, or correct the issue, and once one has been fired in this industry, it's often a lifetime indictment, and a career ender. Given that one may have spent 20 years just to get there to get started, it's not something to toss in the trash lightly.

Abandonment of the aircraft or the assignment without a valid legal reason can have long term (lifelong) repercussions for those involved, and that little act of protest is unlikely to bring change. It's the suicide of a career for no gain. There are other means, but walking off the job without a legal leg up on which to stand, is not one of them, regardless of what part of the rat you give.

There are ways to say enough, but cancelling a thousand flights is not one of them, nor is it professional, or responsible.

I can understand your perspective, as a pilot, as a professional, and as someone who has chosen the vaccine for yourself. You are to be commended for your work ethic.

Ordinarily, I would agree with you about the illegal job actions under the Railway Labor Act. Ordinarily, one simply does not walk out, cancelling a thousand flights. You may be right about the ending of careers, but I think you are essentially wrong about this: "It's the suicide of a career for no gain. There are other means, but walking off the job without a legal leg up on which to stand."

These are not ordinary times. You cannot simply say: "This is not legal" when nothing that is happening is legal. Our entire Constitutional framework for lawful order has been disrupted. At least half the people of this country believe our government has been entirely corrupted to an extent never before imaginable. Rule of law? We can't even manage a fair and honest election. Stolen elections have consequences.

So here we are, with a demented potato-head installed in our highest office. He decrees that all shall take an experimental medication, that time and study is proving to be both ineffective and unsafe, at least for more people than any other vaccine ever. And you think it's both illegal and unprofessional for anyone to not simply go along?

Those who are making this sacrifice of their career and ability to feed their families are not merely selfish people committing suicide. They are backed into a corner without reasonable lawful opportunity to redress their grievances. Therefore, they have made the difficult decision to take a stand against tyranny. They are freedom fighters.