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Originally posted by Scoutmaster:

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Originally posted by braillediver:
Nah- He let his men down because he didn't do what he expects them to do= Use the chain of command.

It's a tough job. Few can shoulder the responsibility. People do die serving our country.

It's good we found out he wasn't suited for that responsibility now instead of when the shit hits the fan.

Just curious. I wonder how the Capt would have felt had his XO done the same thing to him?

If my experience in the U.S. Army is any guide: Decidedly... "annoyed." Ask me how I know

Perhaps it’s fitting, that the aircraft carrier’s namesake, TR himself, was once entangled in a similar conundrum. In August, 1898, The eventual U.S. president drafted what is now known as the infamous Round-Robin Letter. It details the Malarial situation in Cuba.
The dire situation prompted senior officers to meet with Maj. Gen. William R. Shafter, commander of the Fifth Corps, to recommend that troops be withdrawn from Cuba posthaste. That result of that meeting — whether Shafter agreed or not — remains unknown. Perhaps fearing inaction on the side of Shafter, a copy of the letter also found its way to an Associated Press correspondent –– allegedly at the hands of Roosevelt — who cabled immediately to AP headquarters. The letter was published that same day on August 4. When the news broke stateside, President William McKinley was indignant, requesting that “every possible effort [be] made to ascertain the name of the person responsible for its publication.” McKinley was close to concluding peace negotiations with Spain and sought to maintain a military presence in Cuba until that end was achieved. He was cognizant, however, that public sentiment would turn against him if he kept the troops in Cuba. To counteract the effect of the Round-Robin Letter, the men of the Fifth Corps were hastily recalled to Long Island, New York. Strange how history often repeats itself...

Possibly this has already been mentioned, but any information regarding the operational readiness of a Navy unit is classified. This would particularly be true of a CV deployed in the Pacific. So a significant security issue in the unclass letter/email.

Commanding officers are almost always popular with their crew. It is the job of the XO to be the bad guy.

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Originally posted by Ranger41:
Commanding officers are almost always popular with their crew.

And popularity has never been a particularly valid measure of how competent military commanders were besides being popular. George A. Custer was very popular with his men during the Civil War. George S. Patton was not known for his popularity so much.

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Originally posted by sigfreund:

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Originally posted by Ranger41:
Commanding officers are almost always popular with their crew.

And popularity has never been a particularly valid measure of how competent military commanders were besides being popular. George A. Custer was very popular with his men during the Civil War. George S. Patton was not known for his popularity so much.

Very good point.

My wife asked me last night, after seeing the ship's crew cheering for their ousted Captain, if the Navy wasn't making a mistake since his crew obviously loves him.

I told her history is replete with examples of popular idiots, whether political or military.

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Originally posted by Ranger41:

Commanding officers are almost always popular with their crew. It is the job of the XO to be the bad guy.

In my experience it ran about 50/50.

In the mid 90's it became a practice on birdfarms (gators too) to rotate the XO to CO after the normal CO tour. I don't know if they do that anymore. Now that may have only been on FDNF units as tours are longer but in my experience those XO's weren't a dick one day and your drinking buddy the next.

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Originally posted by Kraquin:

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Originally posted by Ranger41:
Commanding officers are almost always popular with their crew. It is the job of the XO to be the bad guy.

In my experience it ran about 50/50.

In the mid 90's it became a practice on birdfarms (gators too) to rotate the XO to CO after the normal CO tour. I don't know if they do that anymore. Now that may have only been on FDNF units as tours are longer but in my experience those XO's weren't a dick one day and your drinking buddy the next.

Yeah, it really depends on the organizations. CVN XOs don't fleet up to CO on the same carrier, although I know that was/is(?) the practice now on regular Navy combatants, where it used to not be the case (change seems to be the only constant in the Navy).

In Navy aviation squadrons, the XO fleets up to CO at the change of command - as I think through my experiences, I'd say 1/3 were great people, 1/3 were nice but relatively incompetent-harmless, 1/3 were despised for various reasons. Same with Airwing commanders.

This is real simple in my mind. Popularity means dick in this situation. I would add in today’s society the idea of “sticking it to the man” would be popular regardless.

He violated the very heart of his responsibility. The nations security. There is no getting around that. We aren’t at war but we aren’t exactly in stable times either.

He should have been relieved. It is the right call.

Yep, he can be popular and still be hugely wrong.

I've been through a number of at sea change of commands, on cruisers back in the 80's. I've never even heard of an XO being promoted to CO (same ship) on any of those, short of a CO being relieved of command, and even then the XO appointment to CO was temporary.

Back then on cruisers, the XO (CDR/O5) left to take a command as a destroyer CO (CDR/O5 billet), or was promoted to CO on another different cruiser (CPT/O6 billet). Maybe transfers to a different ship as an XO. Captains, after change of command or relief, just went elsewhere... Another ship, promotion, shore rotation, resign, wherever.

Well, it looks like the former C.O. has tested positive for this virus.
I don't know anymore than the rest here but I just have a feeling he tried to go through channels and this was a last resort.

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Originally posted by stoic-one:
I've been through a number of at sea change of commands, on cruisers back in the 80's. I've never even heard of an XO being promoted to CO (same ship) on any of those, short of a CO being relieved of command, and even then the XO appointment to CO was temporary.

Back then on cruisers, the XO (CDR/O5) left to take a command as a destroyer CO (CDR/O5 billet), or was promoted to CO on another different cruiser (CPT/O6 billet). Maybe transfers to a different ship as an XO. Captains, after change of command or relief, just went elsewhere... Another ship, promotion, shore rotation, resign, wherever.

I believe it was instituted back in early 00's. The XO/CO Fleet-up practice I think NAVAIR was already practicing, the SWO world adopted it (along with a lot of other dumb ideas) believing it to be a cost-saving measure (SWO in a Box?) and then, talking themselves into believing it retained 'continuity of command'. Nevermind, that the decision makers had not commanded a ship in over 15-years, and the SWO culture is very different than the NAVAIR and Nuke culture, where there's a culture of standards, mentorship and closer oversight.

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Originally posted by tleo205:
Well, it looks like the former C.O. has tested positive for this virus.
I don't know anymore than the rest here but I just have a feeling he tried to go through channels and this was a last resort.

This makes a little more sense and possibly why. If he's very sick with the virus, he's older than the majority of the crew, and doesn't want to die on the ship that doesn't have the medical facility to truly help him. I would also GUESS that if the CO has it, so do some of the top officers on the ship such as the XO since they're in such close contact.

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Originally posted by stoic-one:
I've been through a number of at sea change of commands, on cruisers back in the 80's. I've never even heard of an XO being promoted to CO (same ship) on any of those, short of a CO being relieved of command, and even then the XO appointment to CO was temporary.

This change happened back in 2010-ish; I had a friend who screened for an O-4 XO billet on a DDG, but then the Navy changed the process to XOs fleeting up to COs, so he never went to that XO job. He eventually screened for commmand of a DDG and then did the O-5 XO to CO track (at least for O-5 command ships, not sure if O-6 / CGs fleet up or not).

It's the Navy after all, they need to change things every 5-10 years back to the 'way it was' before changing it back again. Staff's need fitrep bullets, after all.

it may have been already posted, but here is the Ltr Capt Crozier wrote

https://assets.documentcloud.o...sistance-Request.pdf

I read his immediate commanding officer was on the carrier also.

https://www.businessinsider.co...ssified-email-2020-4

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Originally posted by tleo205:
Well, it looks like the former C.O. has tested positive for this virus.
I don't know anymore than the rest here but I just have a feeling he tried to go through channels and this was a last resort.

MY guess and the CO becoming infected is a coincidence; the CO, being in his mid to late 40s (maybe early 50s), just got married to a trophy queen 15 - 20 years his junior or, a trophy queen who's never experienced a navy cruise as the stay home spouse as she's freaking out.

Her lack of ability to remain calm and let her husband do his job without adding additional stress to it, added to the poor decision making about chain of command and OPSEC.

Or, the CO lost his nerve and had a total breakdown when faced with an unknown threat. Would be good for the war college to study in five years when today is history.

Not Navy but Air Force, but I was the commander of a military unit.

He communicated a personnel readiness/availability status of his unit through an UNCLASSIFIED communications method. Whether he had previously reported it through a UNITREP, or whatever it is called today, is irrelevant.

What is relevant is that he made an open (UNCLASSIFIED) communication of a CLASSIFIED matter of his unit’s personnel status. OPSEC and COMSEC procedures were violated. And for that reason alone he should have been relieved of command.

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Originally posted by 2BobTanner:. . . he made an open (UNCLASSIFIED) communication of a CLASSIFIED matter of his unit’s personnel status. OPSEC and COMSEC procedures were violated. And for that reason alone he should have been relieved of command.

I think that nails it.

I doubt anyone with a clue, including Captain Crozier himself, believes that he should not have been relieved fot what he did. I think the only real question (which we’ll likely never know for sure) is whether he could have solved the problem without totally FUBARing OPSEC.

If his direct boss was the only problem, I assume he could have sent a classified message over his direct boss’s head. Sure, it would be breaking chain of command and his direct boss would have been pissed, but he would likely have gotten the support he needed, perhaps with disciplinary consequences, but without breaking OPSEC. If the problem continued up the chain, perhaps external pressure was needed to get support.

It would been a whole lot better if he could have solved the problem while “playing by the rules.” I don’t know if that was possible, but it would have been better.

Hopping over be or two links in the chain to expose a serious problem can be acceptable, if that serious problem actually exists.

Writing an open letter to the world is never, ever going to be OK.

Service members dying, outside of war, to maintain strategic capabilities that prevent war is acceptable. Exposing weaknesses in those strategic cab abilities in an open letter to the world, in an attempt to prevent deaths that are militarily necessary, is never going to be OK

I’m troubled that an officer who doesn’t understand this rose to the rank where he would be a candidate to command such a significant asset, let alone that he was given such a command.