At KSEA, when you cross over, you do right at the center of the airport.......where all the airliners are on the ground.

What did they expect when crossing traffic flies straight through the final approach course!!

Idiots designed this procedure.

KLG
ATP
FAA Wright Bros Award

I flew out of that area in a Blackhawk during an Exercise and they are extremely noisy even when wearing a headset. I could see how a conversation could be missed under these conditions.

FWIW the early evening news reported that the major cause of the air crash was the military pilot... Will have to wait and see if they keep up with this line of reporting. .................................. drill sgt.

quote:

Originally posted by skywag:
At KSEA, when you cross over, you do right at the center of the airport.......where all the airliners are on the ground.

The Seahawk transition has you cross over the threshold of 16C at 1500’-2500’. The Mariner has you cross the threshold of runway 34C at 1500’-2500’. We have a helicopter departure/arrival that crosses under the 14R final at 500’ and 4 miles north of the runways. Procedurally separated but all traffic is called for both the ILS traffic and helicopters.

quote:

Originally posted by 41:
I flew out of that area in a Blackhawk during an Exercise and they are extremely noisy even when wearing a headset. I could see how a conversation could be missed under these conditions.

Considering she was flying with an instructor pilot (was this determined to be a check-ride?), its entirely possible she didn't hear his instructions or, she was tasked saturated. Either way, when he didn't get an acknowledgement back, he should've taken control and maneuvered out of the way.
I know there's a 'could've, would've, should've' element here but, instructor pilots have to recognize when your student doesn't comprehend or, is getting overwhelmed, need to immediately take-over.

quote:

Originally posted by corsair:

Considering she was flying with an instructor pilot (was this determined to be a check-ride?), its entirely possible she didn't hear his instructions or, she was tasked saturated. Either way, when he didn't get an acknowledgement back, he should've taken control and maneuvered out of the way.
I know there's a 'could've, would've, should've' element here but, instructor pilots have to recognize when your student doesn't comprehend or, is getting overwhelmed, need to immediately take-over.

I was a line check airman for quite a few years at my airline. Yes, you're absolutely right! Part of the judgment aspect of line checks or IOE is deciding how far to let the other pilot go before 1) issuing a direct instruction i.e. "Turn left NOW!", and 2) taking the flight controls.

In all my years I only had to do the latter once. The former, many times. Even regular flights when the FO reaches saturation or the limits of their knowledge.

Line checks and IOE ratchet up the workload on the check airman significantly. Maintaining awareness of the Big Picture is that much more difficult.

Which leads me to believe that the instructor pilot was at the least unaware of the RJ.

Line checks should really be administered from the jumpseat. At the airline this was implemented nearly 20 years ago. Perhaps it is one of the corrections Army needs to make.

quote:

Line checks should really be administered from the jumpseat.

How do you “take the flight controls” if you’re in the jumpseat?

And what is an “RJ”.

quote:

Originally posted by Pipe Smoker:
And what is an “RJ”.

RJ = the commuter jet that was on approach
Typically RJ145, at least in the United Express fleet out of IAH.

quote:

Originally posted by Pipe Smoker:

quote:

Line checks should really be administered from the jumpseat.

How do you “take the flight controls” if you’re in the jumpseat?

And what is an “RJ”.

RJ is "Regional Jet". The accident aircraft was a CRJ, which is a Canadair RJ, made by Bombardier in Canada. There are 3 main variants, the CRJ200, CRJ700, and CRJ900.

ERJ is an Embraer Regional Jet, made by Embraer in Brasil. The main variants are the ERJ175 and ERJ195.

The EMB145 is a much older design, basically a stretched turboprop fuselage with a swept wing and jet engines.

As far as taking the controls from the jump seat, it doesn't apply. Administering a line check from the jumpseat means the regular crew is flying while the check airman observes from the jumpseat. The check airman will have a superior situational awareness than even the 2 regular crew, so it is a big safety improvement from regular ops, and hugely better than administering the check from a pilot seat.

quote:

Which leads me to believe that the instructor pilot was at the least unaware of the RJ.

Line checks should really be administered from the jumpseat. At the airline this was implemented nearly 20 years ago. Perhaps it is one of the corrections Army needs to make.

Fly-Sig, I'm not a pilot...
What is a line check?

I would agree with you that the instructor pilot was at the least unaware of the RJ. If the instructor pilot was aware of the immediate danger, he would have done more to avoid it.

quote:

Originally posted by chellim1:

quote:

Which leads me to believe that the instructor pilot was at the least unaware of the RJ.

Line checks should really be administered from the jumpseat. At the airline this was implemented nearly 20 years ago. Perhaps it is one of the corrections Army needs to make.

Fly-Sig, I'm not a pilot...
What is a line check?

A line check is a check ride for an already qualified pilot. Generally, in the airlines, it is an annual check on pilots already flying the line. The check airman rides along and makes sure everything is up to the requirements in the real world. Pilots also receive annual checkrides in the simulator, but that is not the real world. In the sim it is either called a Proficiency Check (which is the old way of doing it) or AQP (advanced qualification program). The PC or the AQP involves many emergencies and procedures which cannot be done in a real aircraft.

A line check can also be to re-qualify a pilot who has lapsed currency (3 landings in 90 days), perhaps because of a leave of absence or simply not flying. Or it can be when an undesirable event has happened and for several reasons we need to document that the pilot is competent to fly.

Line checks differ from an FAA checkride for the issuance of a certificate or rating. Going for a type rating in a new aircraft involves a formal checkride testing all his knowledge and skills, administered by the FAA or someone approved by the FAA. Then that pilot will fly the line under supervision (IOE, Initial Operating Experience) with a check airman for about a month. Then he will get a final line check by a different check airman out on a regular flight before being set loose on the public.

quote:

A line check is a check ride for an already qualified pilot. Generally, in the airlines, it is an annual check on pilots already flying the line. The check airman rides along and makes sure everything is up to the requirements in the real world.

OK, thanks.
So, if line checks should really be administered from the jumpseat... that's a seat without controls, correct?
So the check airman can't just take over instantly? He/she would have to change seats?

But it's my understanding that there were 3 pilots on board this helicopter? So, one should have had an alternate ability to take over the flying immediately?

quote:

Originally posted by chellim1:

quote:

A line check is a check ride for an already qualified pilot. Generally, in the airlines, it is an annual check on pilots already flying the line. The check airman rides along and makes sure everything is up to the requirements in the real world.

OK, thanks.
So, if line checks should really be administered from the jumpseat... that's a seat without controls, correct?
So the check airman can't just take over instantly? He/she would have to change seats?

But it's my understanding that there were 3 pilots on board this helicopter? So, one should have had an alternate ability to take over the flying immediately?

Ok, first I am not familiar with the seat layout in the helicopter, so I don't know how aware the 3rd person would be to everything. In the airline world, pilots can occupy the jumpseat who are not working the flight and not check airmen, such as commuting to/from their home airport. Those pilots have no obligation to be paying attention to what is going on.

In airliners, the jumpseat is an additional seat located between but behind the regular pilot seats along the centerline, with a view of the instrument panel and out the windows. Like someone in the middle of the backseat of your car. It is officially there for the FAA to ride along to administer a check ride or line check. It is, though, used by the airline when the FAA is not occupying it. (The FAA rarely rides in the jumpseat). A company line check airman can ride there to administer a line check. He would have a headset plugged into the radios and intercom system, and will observe the pilots in their normal flight operations. He is just an observer, but obviously will speak up if he becomes aware of something that the crew seems to be missing.

In the old days, or when other constraints come up such as a staffing problem, the line check airman is authorized to fly from either pilot seat as a crew member while doing the line check. Line check airmen do fly a regular schedule just like the rest of the pilots. Line checks are additional assignments for them. So it can happen but is not usual for the check airman to be one of the flight crew for a flight. He is then either Captain or First Officer, doing all of those duties, but also administering the line check.

Sometimes a safety auditor will ride the jumpseat, where it isn't a check ride but he is logging what happens for the purpose of improving procedures.

The 3rd crewman on board the Blackhawk was a crew chief / engineer, not a pilot. He would be sitting behind the pilots, not in a position to take over the controls even if he was qualified to do it.

The check pilot (Eaves) would, I assume, be sitting in the other pilot's seat where he could if necessary take over immediately. Why he didn't, I don't know. Given that Captain Lobach was, theoretically at least, already fully qualified for this type of mission, maybe he had his guard down.

In retrospect, it seems like maybe a 4th crewman might be included in the future, just as a dedicated extra set of eyeballs to watch traffic.