Thanks, kkina. Good info.

quote:

Originally posted by mo4040:
Interestingly enough, 'center weenies' (Coloradohunter44) are not permitted to use visual separation in class A airspace. I wonder if the FAA will pull the plug on that for the 'window-lickers' --- > terminal controllers.

That isn’t entirely shocking. Before our airspace “standardized” on ICAO (International Civil Aviation Organization?) terminology, class A airspace used to be called “Positive Control Airspace”. No VFR up there, everyone has to be on an IFR clearance.

Thanks for sharing the nicknames.

Well, a couple of real bright chuckleheads tried to get in on being nightcrawlers and leak info to the news stations.

https://www.fox5atlanta.com/ne...GapjNe2aS9qNktnhRK0A

quote:

Originally posted by kkina:
More Juan.... Some interesting comments about altimeters.

Juan seems to be the only one asking good questions. One would think a Gold Top would have the most modern cockpit (V model, I think) but AFAIK that has not come up. I had assumed they had a radar altimeter, maybe it's the primitive version (like in my C-152) with the manual setting for pressure.

Black Hawk helicopter's shocking aviation blunder moments before crashing into plane in DC is confirmed in new NTSB report

By BRITTANY CHAIN FOR DAILYMAIL.COM
PUBLISHED: 20:35 EST, 4 February 2025 | UPDATED: 21:05 EST, 4 February 2025

The Black Hawk Army helicopter which crashed into a passenger plane as it was landing in Washington DC was flying 100 feet too high, authorities confirmed on Tuesday.

The data was confirmed as questions mount over how the collision - which killed all 67 people involved - occurred, given that pilots follow strict protocol about the altitudes they can safely reach.

Now, information from an air traffic control radar has confirmed investigators fears that the military chopper was 100 feet above where it was meant to be flying at the time of the fiery crash.

The helicopter, flown by 28-year-old Captain Rebecca M. Lobach on a routine training exercise, was flying at 300 feet, but the maximum altitude permitted for choppers in the area is 200 feet.

Reagan National Airport is notoriously crowded, and the crossover in the air space between jets and helicopters is routine.

The black box data recovered from the wreckage in the Potomac River had indicated that this likely occurred, but the National Transport Safety Board was waiting on the air traffic control data before they confirmed.

Radar data is rounded to the nearest 100 feet, which means the helicopter was flying anywhere between 251 feet and 349 feet of elevation, the NTSB said.

Meanwhile, the passenger plane was at 325 feet at the time of the crash and had been cleared to land.

In the split second before the crash, the pilots made an effort to jerk the plane upwards in an effort to avoid the oncoming helicopter.

'At one point very close to the impact, there was a slight change in pitch, an increase in pitch,' NTSB's Todd Inman said in a press conference Saturday night.

There were no survivors on either flight, and as of Tuesday, all 67 bodies have now been retrieved from the water.

There were 60 passengers and four crew on board the American Airlines flight from Wichita, Kansas, while three soldiers were on the helicopter.

'This is a complex investigation,' said Brice Banning, NTSB investigator in charge. 'There are a lot of pieces here. Our team is working hard to gather this data.'

Banning also discussed the last moments from the jet’s two black boxes, which captured sound in the cockpit and flight data.

'The crew had a verbal reaction,' Banning said, with the data recorder showing 'the airplane beginning to increase its pitch.

'Sounds of impact were audible about one second later, followed by the end of the recording.'

More than 300 responders were taking part in the recovery effort at a given time, officials said. Two Navy barges were also deployed to lift heavy wreckage.

An unidentified firefighter working the scene told reporter Brian Entin he and others are 'emotionally wiped out after seeing the horror up close.'

The firefighter explained that the water is 'actually very clear' and with their flashlights, 'they saw horrible things when they arrived.'

Full investigations typically take a year or more. Investigators hope to have a preliminary report within 30 days.

Wednesday’s crash was the deadliest in the U.S. since November 12, 2001, when a jet slammed into a residential neighborhood in the New York City borough of Queens, just after takeoff from Kennedy Airport.

That crash killed all 260 people on board and five people on the ground.

it seems completely clear that the BH was too high and that's the ultimate cause. The ATC data is not ambiguous on that at all. And ATC not getting the collision situation fixed is a contributor. But the real investigation is why? This is a pretty modern bird flying in controlled airspace, the military lags behind the civil world in all things instrument and maybe this will move that forward.
Bad altimeter setting, seems pretty likely.
But WTF in controlled airspace.

Clearly the BH didn't ID the right plane as the traffic mentioned by ATC.
Since I've never flown an airliner of helicopter I could be off on this but why would you go anywhere near that plane when you could stop forward motion.
Seems like the wake turbulence could be a big risk and more so when you're that close to the ground and no altitude buffer to recover.
The only thing that surprises me is that this airport hasn't had a number of these accidents before.
Too many moving parts to the puzzle and no room for error.

Respect & Honor

quote:

Originally posted by hrcjon:

Bad altimeter setting, seems pretty likely.

It would take a pretty significant "bad" setting to cause an altimeter to be 100' off. I have never been in one of these helicopters, but I'll bet that there's more than one altimeter. Any discrepancy should have been noticed and resolved prior to takeoff.

This whole situation sucks, from the helo crew who wasn't where they were supposed to be, to the lack of controllers. (which doesn't seem to have had much to do with this particular incident)

One of my neighbors at my beach house was on this plane, along with 6 of his friends, returning from a hunting trip. Steve was a great guy, and I had met a few of the guys traveling with him. He was and avid fisherman, and would have these guys running offshore with him from Ocean City, MD every week.

After looking at the Flight Aware website,
I am baffled At how this does not happen three times a week all around the U.S.

quote:

Originally posted by V-Tail:

...I have never been in one of these helicopters, but I'll bet that there's more than one altimeter...

As near as I can tell, A Co 12th Avn Bn has four Gold Tops, some L and some M models. I'm certain they have advanced communications systems for the VIP pax.

More importantly, do they have the modern glass panels for instruments? Autopilot? A radar altimeter?

There may be a very simple explanation here for this disaster and its something you see sometimes in the miliary:

"The rules don't apply to me"

It may have been just plain old arrogance that got 67 people killed unfortunately.

I'm still wondering why, given this was a training flight, the instructor pilot wasn't monitoring the trainee more closely. I recall seeing the flight path of the BH and to an untrained eye looks like she was struggling. Path was erratic. But that could have been the training plan. I don't know. But the trainer is supposed to ensure the trainee flies the profile and if not, correct or call a stop. And busting an altitude restriction while you're crossing the approach path of an active runway seems like a pretty big error. Especially when the BH was specifically warned of a CRJ on approach for that runway.

quote:

Originally posted by XinTX:

busting an altitude restriction while you're crossing the approach path of an active runway seems like a pretty big error. Especially when the BH was specifically warned of a CRJ on approach for that runway.

Something sort of similar happened to me at ORL (Orlando Executive Airport). Narrow miss. Close Encounter of the Scary Kind.

I was the instructor pilot on an instrument training flight in the v-tail. My trainee client was flying the ILS (Instrument Landing System) approach to runway 07. There was a helicopter doing real estate photography in the area; the helicopter pilot was informed by ORL Tower that there was a Bonanza on a three mile final, and helicopter was instructed to remain clear of the approach path.

My trainee was doing an outstanding job on the approach; he was hand-flying the airplane and keeping the needles within a half-dot deflection. I was scanning for traffic and did not see the helicopter, it was sort of hidden in the visual clutter of downtown and dead ahead of us. I saw it as we almost collided -- I called out "my airplane" as I took control and made a sharp turn toward the rear of the helicopter, figuring that it was not likely to back up.

After landing, I telephoned the tower supervisor and had a few words with him. I also turned in one of those NTSB forms re a dangerous situation.

quote:

Originally posted by XinTX:
I'm still wondering why, given this was a training flight, the instructor pilot wasn't monitoring the trainee more closely. I recall seeing the flight path of the BH and to an untrained eye looks like she was struggling. Path was erratic. But that could have been the training plan. I don't know. But the trainer is supposed to ensure the trainee flies the profile and if not, correct or call a stop. And busting an altitude restriction while you're crossing the approach path of an active runway seems like a pretty big error. Especially when the BH was specifically warned of a CRJ on approach for that runway.

1. If you are refering to the path posted on page one, which is what most of the media is using, then the path appears erratic, but may not have been. The Blackhawk was not using ADS-B, but instead using MLAT. MLAT calculates an aircraft's position based on the time difference of a radio signal sent from the aircraft and received by multiple antennas. If there aren't enough antennas in the right places odd results happen. MLAT has trouble with low altitude and doesn't update positions as frequently as ADS-B. It will be interesting to see what the Blackhawk's flight data recorder says the path was. With ADS-B, the aircraft broadcasts its position data directly.

2. We have no idea what any of the Blackhawk's crew was doing or why they were above 200'.

3. My opinion, fwtw, is while the crash may have been avoided if the Blackhawk was at 200', that's still just way to close. The NTSB has said the Blackhawk was within the vertical limits of the route. If the CRJ was where it was supposed to be, then I just can't imagine any plan that allows only 100' between military and commercial aircraft as being safe.

The New York Times has constructed a 3D view of what the Blackhawk's crew may have seen from the cockpit: What the Black Hawk Pilots Could See, Just Before the Crash

quote:

The New York Times has constructed a 3D view of what the Blackhawk's crew may have seen from the cockpit: What the Black Hawk Pilots Could See, Just Before the Crash

Not signing up for anything related to the NYT.

I used a burner Gmail email for it.

This is where it gets interesting in terms of tech. Why the heck does not a military helicopter in this airspace NOT have ADS-B???

quote:

Originally posted by hrcjon:
This is where it gets interesting in terms of tech. Why the heck does not a military helicopter in this airspace NOT have ADS-B???

This article is six years old but AFAIK the info is still current:

https://nbaa.org/aircraft-oper...y-sensitive-flights/

FAA Permits ADS-B Off for Military, Other Sensitive Flights

July 22, 2019

On July 18, the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) published an interim final rule that permits the military and other sensitive operations conducted by federal, state and local government entities in matters of national defense, homeland security, intelligence and law enforcement to fly with their installed ADS-B equipment off.

https://www.govinfo.gov/conten...8/pdf/2019-15248.pdf

The FAA’s action follows congressional direction included in the John S. McCain National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2019, which prevents the Department of Transportation from requiring the installation of ADS-B equipment on Department of Defense (DoD) aircraft, including fighters, bombers or other special mission aircraft. In the legislation, Congress also mandated the continued provision of air traffic services and continued access for DoD aircraft not equipped with ADS-B.

“We appreciate the special needs of the U.S. military and their support aircraft in conducting sensitive operations that require additional privacy and security considerations,” said Doug Carr, NBAA vice president for regulatory and international affairs. “It’s important for NBAA members to know that aircraft affected by this interim final rule will retain an alternate transponder capability, ensuring that aircraft safety systems, such as TCAS, will continue to function properly,” Carr continued.

NBAA continues to advocate for business aviation flights to have the ability to opt-out from real-time tracking – by anyone, anywhere in the world, who has the right equipment, and whose intentions may be unknown – when the FAA’s ADS-B equipage mandate takes effect on Jan. 1, 2020. The agency’s Blocked Aircraft Registration Request (BARR) program and alternate Mode-S Code program – the latter under development – has the potential to provide an opt-out allowance. Carr concluded, “Aircraft operators should be afforded the same level of security using the National Airspace System as citizens do when driving on our national highways. We believe these programs will address our concerns.”