Show me a reliable, verifiable source of information that shows naziism is present in Ukraine; I’d submit that there are more actual “nazis” in the US than in Ukraine. There exists the American Nazi Party which has upwards of 500 members. Nowhere can I find reputable information that Ukraine is a “nazi state”.

A key point here, Zelensky is Jewish. Is anyone saying he's a Nazi, because I'm not buying it.

quote:

Originally posted by gearhounds:
Show me a reliable, verifiable source of information that shows naziism is present in Ukraine; I’d submit that there are more actual “nazis” in the US than in Ukraine. There exists the American Nazi Party which has upwards of 500 members. Nowhere can I find reputable information that Ukraine is a “nazi state”.

quote:

Originally posted by HuskySig:
Good to know the Ukrainian Nazis are the good kind of Nazis. Thanks for the course correction.

So a Jewish leader who's grandparents were killed in a Nazi concentration camp is a Nazi??? Nice. Outside the Azov Brigade, a few hundred Ukrainians who banded together to fight the Russians and their proxies in Easter Ukraine in 2014, can anyone show any proof of an Ukrainian Nazi Government? Didn't think so. And even the Azov Brigade has scrubbed their Nazi icons from their unit.

But for your consideration, there are also pro-Russian separatist groups that have been photographed with Nazi symbols on their uniforms... So in your opinion are the pro-Russian Nazis considered good Nazis now?

quote:

Originally posted by gearhounds:
Show me a reliable, verifiable source of information that shows naziism is present in Ukraine; I’d submit that there are more actual “nazis” in the US than in Ukraine. There exists the American Nazi Party which has upwards of 500 members. Nowhere can I find reputable information that Ukraine is a “nazi state”.

There are plenty of articles

Commentary: Ukraine’s neo-Nazi problem

Ukraine's Nazi problem is real, even if Putin's 'denazification' claim isn't

Both of those articles you provided primarily hang their hats on the already-mentioned Azov militia unit as the supposed proof of the so-called rampant Nazism/neo-Nazism in Ukrainian government/military.

Other than that, they rely on the same tired old trope that "right-wing/nationalist = fascist/Nazi". All conservatives are fascists/Nazis. All nationalists are fascists/Nazis. Anyone who doesn't agree with you politically is a fascist/Nazi. Etc.

And the latter one touches on the collaboration between some Ukrainians and the (actual) Nazis during WW2. However, it leaves out the important context that this was primarily an "enemy of my enemy is my friend" type situation that developed as a result of Russia's horrible mistreatment and genocide within Ukraine in the decades leading into WW2, resulting in the Germans being greeted as potential liberators from Stalin's proven brutality when they arrived. "We know the Russian regime was terrible, so perhaps these new Germans will make life better, because it'd be tough for them to make it any worse". That WW2-era support of Nazi Germany 80+ years ago doesn't make Ukraine Nazi any more than it makes America Communist just because we supported the Soviet Union against our common enemies during the same period of time.

Best of all, both articles you provided to supposedly prove your point that Ukraine is controlled by Nazis go out of their way to explicitly state that this Russian assertion is false.

From the first one:

quote:

"To be clear, the Kremlin’s claims that Ukraine is a hornets’ nest of fascists are false: far-right parties performed poorly in Ukraine’s last parliamentary elections, and Ukrainians reacted with alarm to the National Militia’s demonstration in Kiev."

From the second one:

quote:

"Of the many distortions manufactured by Russian President Vladimir Putin to justify Russia’s assault on Ukraine, perhaps the most bizarre is his claim that the action was taken to “denazify” the country and its leadership. In making his case for entering his neighbor’s territory with armored tanks and fighter jets, Putin has stated that the move was undertaken “to protect people” who have been “subjected to bullying and genocide,” and that Russia “will strive for the demilitarization and denazification of Ukraine.”

Putin’s destructive actions — among them the devastation of Jewish communities — make clear that he’s lying when he says his goal is to ensure anyone’s welfare.

On its face, Putin’s smear is absurd, not least because Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy is Jewish and has said that members of his family were killed during World War II. There is also no evidence of recent mass killings or ethnic purges taking place in Ukraine. Moreover, labeling enemies Nazis is a common political ploy in Russia, especially from a leader who favors disinformation campaigns and wants to stir up feelings of national vengeance against a WWII foe to justify conquest."

There are some potentially valid reasons to question some of the actions and decisions made by Ukraine and our own government when it comes to events in Ukraine over the past decade. But "Ukraine is controlled by Nazis" isn't one of them, by any stretch of the imagination.

quote:

Originally posted by HuskySig:

Commentary: Ukraine’s neo-Nazi problem

Ukraine's Nazi problem is real, even if Putin's 'denazification' claim isn't

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! That's it?

That's what you got after a furious google search to support your claims?

Really?

NAZIs were far left. So your first claim is complete shit. Absolute shit.

Your second source is a known shit for brains communist mouthpiece.

Show us NAZIs goosestepping and murdering Jews.

Your claims of NAZIs is laughable at best.

quote:

Originally posted by HuskySig:

quote:

Originally posted by gearhounds:
Show me a reliable, verifiable source of information that shows naziism is present in Ukraine; I’d submit that there are more actual “nazis” in the US than in Ukraine. There exists the American Nazi Party which has upwards of 500 members. Nowhere can I find reputable information that Ukraine is a “nazi state”.

There are plenty of articles

Commentary: Ukraine’s neo-Nazi problem

Ukraine's Nazi problem is real, even if Putin's 'denazification' claim isn't

//Josh Cohen is a former USAID project officer involved in managing economic reform projects in the former Soviet Union.//

Good job spreading Russian propaganda.
Or are you a Russian BOT now?


I had 2 Ukrainians in my home yesterday.
Does that make me a NAZI now?

quote:

Originally posted by sse:
LOL Who is his audience for this PR war? Who did he sway with this visit while donning this costume? Did he need to make a visit or need to sway anyone?

I'm going to assume that wasn't a rhetorical question.

Uh, the people who are giving him billions of dollars? Sounds like an audience.

Do you honestly think that if the Ukraine was lead by some uncharismatic schlub--like an Angela Merkel--that we'd see half the support for them that we do now?

And of course he's winning PR. If you don't see the fact that every halfwit out there has hung up a Ukrainian flag in their yard or changed their Twitter bio to "stand with Ukraine", you clearly don't get out much. Without widespread public support, they're not going to keep spending money--at least not at the rate they currently are.

Who cares what you think or what I think, the fact that nearly a plurality of Americans support this nonsense shows how successful the guy has been at drumming up support for this war.

A relatively recent poll by the Ronald Reagan Institute shows 57% of Americans want to keep giving them money. 82% think Russia is the bad guy (I mean, no shit Sherlock, but still a unanimous result). 76% consider the Ukraine an ally, which is like 30% higher than when the same question was asked a year earlier.

Again, who cares what you think, because Zelensky has been highly successful at crafting an image of himself and giving Western publics a figure to glom onto.

He knows exactly what he's doing, regardless of what you think, and he's doing it very, very successfully because A) he's still in power, B) we're still pouring billions of dollars into that place, C) Russia's more or less losing.

If the Russians wanted him dead. He would of been so already. Watching the idiot Americans sending all of their current armament there for the Russians to see and the billions upon billions of $ going God knows where that is going to suck us down the drain. Not today maybe, but soon enough is their plan. Has been all along. A few 100,000+ soldiers dead is a drop in the bucket and hardly worth thinking about for them. The using and loss of old equipment is a plus for them as well.

The little man will take one as soon as Russians decide it is time.

Many underestimate the Russian strategy and capability.

Which is a costly mistake.

One should be skeptical of so called unbiased sources for info. on this conflict.

quote:

Originally posted by old rugged cross:
Watching the idiot Americans sending all of their current armament there for the Russians to see and the billions upon billions of $ going God knows where that is going to suck us down the drain.

A few 100,000+ soldiers dead is a drop in the bucket and hardly worth thinking about for them. The using and loss of old equipment is a plus for them as well.

Many underestimate the Russian strategy and capability.

... So Putin is actually a strategic genius, and everything is going according to Russian plans, with it all being a ploy to trade hundreds of thousands of soldiers and billions of dollars of equipment in exchange for seeing the capabilities of whatever spare older equipment NATO countries had sitting in warehouses?

Sure, ORC.

Sorry to get you revved up but I did not say any of the things you just posted. All of that is a stretch. So please control yourself.

Russia can't even pay it's pensioners on top of cutting the payments to $300 a month.

All of you whining about Ukraine are just itching to have them right next door to NATO again with missiles pointing right at the technology center of the universe.

China wants the Netherlands dead and all of you commies are just clueless.

^^^Why are you calling us commies? I don't recall any 'commies' posting in this thread recently...

And why does it seem that a plurality are so 'personally invested' in Ukraine based on the responses in last two pages of this thread?

Maybe we could all take it down a notch, or two...

^^^^+1

quote:

Originally posted by Mars_Attacks:

quote:

Originally posted by HuskySig:

Commentary: Ukraine’s neo-Nazi problem

Ukraine's Nazi problem is real, even if Putin's 'denazification' claim isn't

That's what you got after a furious google search to support your claims?

Literally one second worth of searching...

quote:

Show us NAZIs goosestepping and murdering Jews.

The German Nazis weren't murdering Jews right up until the point they started...

quote:

Originally posted by ScreamingCockatoo:
I had 2 Ukrainians in my home yesterday.
Does that make me a NAZI now?

Nope. But I'm not the one trying to imply all Ukrainians as all being Nazis.

My point in all of this, is that the US has appropriated $110B of aide and military weaponry to Ukraine. Couldn't a fraction of that money not been better spent here at home? It's not like we have the money in the first place, but if we're going to go further in hock when not spend it domestically? Unfortunately, the transfer of wealth is much easier when it comes to oil, arms, and corrupt countries. So here we are, in a proxy war with Russia run by a bunch of maniacs who seem to be willing to accept escalation up to and including nuclear war. Does this line of thinking make me a Russian bot?

quote:

Originally posted by HuskySig:
My point in all of this, is that the US has appropriated $110B of aide and military weaponry to Ukraine. Couldn't a fraction of that money not been better spent here at home? It's not like we have the money in the first place, but if we're going to go further in hock when not spend it domestically?

If that's your point then your best bet would be to make that point, rather than going off message by repeatedly resorting to the same absurd "Ukraine is full of Nazis" line that Russia has tried (and failed) to push.

Honestly, that specific point is valid, but all your talk of "Nazis" does is just ruin your credibility and distract from what's supposedly your point.

quote:

Originally posted by RogueJSK:
If that's your point then your best bet would be to make that point, rather than going off message by repeatedly resorting to the same absurd "Ukraine is full of Nazis" line that Russia has tried (and failed) to push.

Honestly, that specific point is valid, but all your talk of "Nazis" does is just ruin your credibility and distract people from what's supposedly your point.

"Full of Nazis" is a stretch, but the Azov battalion is a real. I'm pretty ok with being on the side of no Nazi support.

quote:

Originally posted by HuskySig:

quote:

Originally posted by RogueJSK:
If that's your point then your best bet would be to make that point, rather than going off message by repeatedly resorting to the same absurd "Ukraine is full of Nazis" line that Russia has tried (and failed) to push.

Honestly, that specific point is valid, but all your talk of "Nazis" does is just ruin your credibility and distract people from what's supposedly your point.

"Full of Nazis" is a stretch, but the Azov battalion is a real. I'm pretty ok with being on the side of no Nazi support.

Uh, current Azov command structure make it plain that they are not nazi in their beliefs. They are, from their own words-

“Palamar, the Azov deputy commander, said accusations of Nazism among the Azov are Russian propaganda. He claims the only ideology of the current regiment is Ukrainian patriotism. Greeks, Crimean Tatars, Jews, Moldavians, Belarusians, Russians and Ukrainians serve in the regiment together, he claimed, saying that the soldiers serving in the Azov Regiment have different religions and use different languages.

“Everything else is a personal matter. Any kind of harassment or restrictions are not tolerated,” Palamar said.

“But it is important to say we hate Nazism and communism.”

I think it’s safe to say that they do not support nazi ideals… despite what Russia says.

https://www.yahoo.com/now/azov...-nazi-142500366.html

quote:

I'm pretty ok with being on the side of no Nazi support.

Well, when you get there, let us know. Or does Russia's single most effective combat unit in Ukraine - Wagner PMC - not count?

http://informnapalm.org/en/rus...-ranks-of-wagner-pmc

http://en.respublica.lt/signs-...-russian-mercenaries

quote:

Originally posted by HuskySig:

quote:

Originally posted by RogueJSK:
If that's your point then your best bet would be to make that point, rather than going off message by repeatedly resorting to the same absurd "Ukraine is full of Nazis" line that Russia has tried (and failed) to push.

Honestly, that specific point is valid, but all your talk of "Nazis" does is just ruin your credibility and distract people from what's supposedly your point.

"Full of Nazis" is a stretch, but the Azov battalion is a real. I'm pretty ok with being on the side of no Nazi support.

And there is that Azov Brigade again. 500 people defending their homes from Russian invaders out of how many resisting Russia's attempt to rip Eastern Ukraine away from Kiev.

But here is a more recent article about Russian backed separatists with SS symbols on their uniform..
https://www.businessinsider.co...e-nationalist-2022-4