quote:

Originally posted by parabellum:
No feedback, no PM.

After the rules are created- new members, when they receive their email indicating they have been approved will in that email be provided a link to the rules and told that they must have 200 posts before they can use Classifieds, and that means buying, selling or trading.

Since we've decided that all transactions are now out in the open, and since all listings are exclusive to SIGforum, any seller suddenly marking their ad with "sold" or "withdrawn" is going to be scrutinized and questioned and repeated instances of this will result in a loss of privileges in Classifieds. Any new member violating the 200 post rule faces the possibility of banishment from the forum.

I can understand having the ADS exclusive to the Sig Forum. But if an item doesn't sell the seller should be able to withdraw so that they can post the item for sale elsewhere.

quote:

Originally posted by yanici:

I can understand having the ADS exclusive to the Sig Forum. But if an item doesn't sell the seller should be able to withdraw so that they can post the item for sale elsewhere.

I don't think that's ever been an issue. But, you should edit the WTS to withdraw & remove the listing from here before posting elsewhere
It people having a listing here and elsewhere that was against the rules.

quote:

Originally posted by P250UA5:

quote:

Originally posted by yanici:

I can understand having the ADS exclusive to the Sig Forum. But if an item doesn't sell the seller should be able to withdraw so that they can post the item for sale elsewhere.

I don't think that's ever been an issue. But, you should edit the WTS to withdraw & remove the listing from here before posting elsewhere
It people having a listing here and elsewhere that was against the rules.

Yup. I see it happen all the time, and the practice has never been frowned upon. So, my guess is, that should continue to be ok. The only thing that's been frowned upon is, "Last chance before it goes on GB, or back in the safe" or some such announcement. Just saying "Withdrawn" or "No longer available" should suffice.

quote:

Originally posted by yanici:
I can understand having the ADS exclusive to the Sig Forum. But if an item doesn't sell the seller should be able to withdraw so that they can post the item for sale elsewhere.

Yes, and they are welcome to do just that, but if they make a habit of such, they shouldn't be posting their items for sale here.

Over the years, some members- most of them with hardly any posts at all- have complained about how we do things in the Classifieds section of this forum. The most common complaint is the "exclusive listing" rule. That rule, as with the rules we are now formulating, grew out of a perceived need, and was not decided upon arbitrarily. The habit of some members to post an item for sale across multiple forums sometimes caused friction here, when a member would sell the item elsewhere but leave the listing up in this forum. Members didn't like posting "I'll take it" only to learn that the item was already sold. Hence, the "exclusive listing" rule. I don't wish to be impolite, but I don't care if this is not done in any other forums. We do not make decisions here based upon following the crowd. We make rules and policies based upon a perceived need.

Within the past week a member- a member with virtually no posts- managed to get himself banned with his whining over this rule, and then showing his ass when I threatened to remove his ad, by saying "Yeah, go ahead and remove it, so I can then post it in a lot of forums, where they don't have this rule," and then went on to say "Oh, I'm a dealer." Yeah, and that provision in the "exclusive listing" rule, stating that this rule does not apply to dealers assumes that the seller would have more than one of the item to sell, or could obtain another copy of the item for sale. This guy was selling a commemorative pistol which he himself stated was not to be found for sale anywhere online for the past six years. So, it didn't matter whether or not he is a dealer- he had only one of these items for sale. And by the way, he was asking 2000 bucks for a shitty-looking P-220. He wasn't going to get his asking price anyway.

Anyway, I digress. The point of all this is, if a member doesn't like our rules, they shouldn't be selling here. But, if a member on rare occasion feels the need to withdraw an item to sell elsewhere, he can simply state this plainly in his ad, and then the ad will be removed. If, however, a member makes a habit of such things, this, to me, is an indication that they are making a habit of listing items both here and elsewhere. When this happens, it's fairly obvious, so a member acting in good faith has little to worry about. I would hope that anyone posting in Classifieds would have an understanding of our rules and would therefore be willing to tolerate a question or two if they should withdraw an item.

By the way, the one good thing about not pruning old ads out of Classifieds is that I can easily research a member's posting history. If ads are nuked after a mere 90 days, I have to rely on my memory of a member's activity.

quote:

Originally posted by parabellum:

By the way, the one good thing about not pruning old ads out of Classifieds is that I can easily research a member's posting history. If ads are nuked after a mere 90 days, I have to rely on my memory of a member's activity.

I'm reading between the lines here; your statement leads me to believe that there is no easy way to move "pruned" posts to an archive that is accessible only to those who have administrative file access privileges.

I can move posts manually but there's no automation for moving them. I can auto-lock posts after a certain period, but it's across all forum sections, and not for one specific section. I can auto-prune posts in selected sections of the forum, anywhere from one section, to all of them.

quote:

Limit bumps to one per day or every two days.

Unless you're dropping the price at the same time, it should be a lot longer than one or two days IMO.

Something else- VPN use in Classifieds. I will not accept any registration attempt if the registrant is using a VPN. VPNs disguise your geographic location, and I have to see where you are when you register. The same goes for use of Classifieds. For reasons which should now be obvious, any use of a VPN in Classifieds is suspect.

After registering, and in general use of the forum outside of Classifieds, members can feel free to use a VPN, but when you post in that section, you have to disable your VPN.

There was a time not too long ago when I was unconcerned with such things, but these slimy little reptiles keep slithering back and trying to take member's money, so, here we are. And, again, those members who feel this is pointless, stupid or silly or "other forums don't do this," that's fine. Just don't use Classifieds, that's all.

These rules won’t impact the few commercial accounts that post in the classifieds, will they?

No. Our established dealers should have no concerns. Top Gun Supply, Grayguns, usaoz, et al will not be subject to these rules. The day we have no trust for them is the day we should shut down that section altogether.

The classifieds are a privilege. With the trouble in the past maybe only let people with a CUT sell. Yes, that will limit things, but it should eliminate people with farm accounts only here to scam people. A CUT means the person selling has been around a while and contributed. Just a thought.

quote:

Originally posted by Ackks:

only let people with a CUT sell. Yes, that will limit things

It sure would limit things. Many (most?) CUTs are awarded to people who have been SIGforum members for at least ten years.

Some CUTs are earned in much less time. Many of the instant CUTs say "Banned."

^^^^^^^^^^^^
Very well stated.

quote:

Originally posted by parabellum:
The point of all this is, if a member doesn't like our rules, they shouldn't be selling here.

That's the bottom line, in a nutshell.

quote:

It sure would limit things. Many (most?) CUTs are awarded to people who have been SIGforum members for at least ten years.

Some CUTs are earned in much less time.

True, but there are also qualified members who have not requested a cut. I have 2,153 posts since 01-15-09 and am very satisfied with "Member".

Regarding "bumps": I suggested one or two days because I am not sure how much of the first page is viewed on certain devices. My original thought was that "bumps" should be allowed only when the the item moves to the second page.

.

Para, thanks for asking for input on this.

Having to be logged in to view the Classifieds with a minimum time period as a member and having a minimum number of quality posts to participate in the buying or selling are the two most important points that would tend to minimize scamming.

Having separate forums for WtB and WtS would be a nice feature for convenience but won't do anything for safety.

Having pictures are good, too, but putting a member name and date on a photo are too easy to fake to be a real safety precaution.

Apologies if I may have missed this in previous postings...

Thoughts/input on a classified sub-forum listing feedback on deals that went well. Also listing feedback on possible scams alerts?

Some very good suggestions. Some could be complicated for all involved, but I think most would not be put off if the end goal is to protect other members and ourselves.

I have no doubt that the primary importance of this is the overall integrity of SIGforum and protecting its members, so my suggestion isn't as much for the rules but for Para and other admins to reduce workload. I have no doubt this has been part of your formulation, but what is the threshold? It's been shown that some very sinister turds have managed to wiggle through. Is there a ratio of rules that should weed out most of the scammers XX%, self policing by members XX%, win some lose some X%?

I am by no means saying you should give up on some of them, it's not your style anyhow, but..... short of drastic measures, there are indeed some dirty sumbitches who will test the boundaries and might just find a way. If you can reduce those numbers and the attention the classifieds demand by instituting new rules, that leaves more energy to ferret out the sneaky ones. Yes, that last one eats up some of the time and attention you're working to save, in addition to making it better for the membership, but yea.....I'm just spitballing here.

Only other thing I can think of is that at first I didn't like the idea of inserting a paper with username or some such into every picture as I like to post as many pictures as I can. For certain items it can be a lot. I felt this might be a PITA for me. Then I realized this would prevent pics from being harvested for use in scams.

Anyhow, just my thoughts.

quote:

Then I realized this would prevent pics from being harvested for use in scams.

This is why I place my watermark in areas that would be difficult to crop-out.

I was was very active for several years on TimeZone, and James Dowling would always photograph his watches on a very distinct map of a location in Aisa.
In my earliest postings in the Classifieds, I used this technique with a map of Tuscany and my watermark.

.

With the forum software are you allowed to add check boxes to the posting forms. Maybe something like “I have not posted this item for sale on any other website”. If it’s not checked then shitcan the ad.