One of the items I would like to understand as we discuss this is if we can 'individually' apply a rule about membership duration (not post count). Example I want to sell X (which might be odd and unique) and I'm only wanting to sell it to people who have been on here for some duration (like let's say since 2009 or whatever). You can accumulate posts quickly, but you can't accumulate time. And I am nearly 100% comfortable with anyone who has been here for awhile.

While some of my suggestions have been already made, I thought I would chime in with my thoughts as I’ve been around 20 years this year and have bought a fair amount of stuff and only tried to sell once that I can recall. During this time, I have had two problems. The first was from a defective holster from someone who is no longer a member. The second was from a member who was claiming my USPS MO wasn’t valid. It was but he reached out to Para to complain about it. I still think he was trying to rip me off by getting Para to nix me so he could keep the MO and not ship his goods.

1. I’m a member of a local sports team that has a sub forum call the SandBox. You can’t even see this forum let alone post in it unless you have been a member for a certain amount of time and post level. I would suggest, at least 18 months and a post count of 100-200 minimum to access the Classifieds. In the sports forum, this seems to keep out anyone but those who are true members.

2. I would require photos of every item for sale if you are a private seller. I would also require identification of the member on every photo to include their forum name and date of membership.

3. I would require businesses to prove their legitimacy via website, FFL, name of business and business license with the proper city/state link to verify.

4. I’ve bought several firearms over the years. It seems common (even though not illegal) to see ads where it says your FFL must accept shipping from a non-FFL (for “private” sales only of course). I would nix that. All private sales should be sent via Ship My Gun. The seller should send a copy of his or her’s DL (as required by Ship My Gun) before payment is sent. I would then require the seller to post on a photo showing the firearm their initials as would be shown on the DL. This would be in addition to their forum name and membership date. For example, If George Washington was selling an AR-15, he would include with his pictures of the AR-15, his initials GW plus the membership data. If none of the data is included by the seller, a buyer would not have to follow through with the purchase and the sale would be delisted.

5. Annual membership fee for access to the Classified’s section along with the requisite post count and time on the forum.

Thanks again for all you do.

quote:

Originally posted by DrewR:
Maybe hide the Classifieds from anyone who is not signed into their forum profile?

I like this too and, maybe, not allowing new members to see until they meet "minimum" requirements (like X number of posts and Y number of days/months)?

As new members join and their post count consist of "yup", "I agree", and other none participating posts, the long(er) termed members here may (or will?) help you.

I believe i can speak for all here Para, we appreciate your diligence keeping this place honest and rooting out the low(er) life people who try to tear down the ethos of your house.

I’ll add my vote for classifieds not to be viewable if not logged in.

I also like having different sections for WTB, WTS, and Vendor ads.

Since you asked:

1: anyone who posts an ad must have a valid email in their profile, (both buyers and sellers) and that should be the only email that is used in communication about the sale.

2: If it is not obvious in the thread, a seller needs to note in his ad which member purchased the item before requesting the thread be closed. This will significantly cut down on sellers who list items not exclusive to SigForum members and then sell to someone else not on the forum.

3: What is the qualification to be a “dealer”?

4: All sellers must read the future updated rules thread, and in a single post affirm they will abide by those rules. That should be their only post in that thread (to avoid clutter) and rule violations should be a one-and done. Strike One and you lose your classifieds access. You can ask Para again in X amount of months. This will avoid him having track violations. Follow the rules or don’t play.

5: No stock photos. Either learn how to post a photo, or send them via email at request, but photos need to be legit.

6: “I’ll take it” should be the “all stop”. If it’s not marked as “sold”, and someone calls “I’ll take it”, then whatever behind the scenes negotiations that are happening with other members end.

7: Personally I think that classifieds should be viewable to anyone, even nonmembers. And someways classifieds can be a recruiting tool to bring new an active members to the site.

As has been stated over and over, classifieds is a privilege. Follow the rules and life is golden. Don’t follow the rules and you cause angst to other members and unnecessary busy-work for Para.

Just as a FYI/PSA, don’t think that pics with a screen name or other identifying info is gonna be enough necessarily. When I was scammed on another forum recently, the seller (per my request) submitted photos of the gun for sale with a note next to the gun with their screen name and the forum name. It looked legit and I was happy enough to continue the sale. Found out later the photos were photoshopped with old pics from Gunsamerica. So now regardless of what I buy I try to ask for a specific angle of picture that is uncommon or maybe have someone roll up a dollar and put it though the trigger guard as that’s harder to fake than a superimposed note next to the gun on a table. Not sure if we can make pics a requirement or certain angles a requirement, but it’s something I think about now obviously.

I’ve been on several forums where they have a separate WTB sub forum. I don’t know who looks at those, because I never have. I just looked at the current ads, and I can see from the 13th to the 16th on the first page. That’s just not enough traffic to be a problem that requires ‘fixing’ via sub forums.

What I do like in a single Forum classified is that every post title must begin with WTS, WTT, or WTB. If SIGForum posters can’t get three letters at the beginning of a post correct, civilization is doomed.

I’ve been on a forum that required X posts before you could access Classifieds. That was ok at a realistic value of X, but if it were 200 I wouldn’t have bothered. I read a lot, but don’t post often. Usually because others are smarter, and I’m learning. To me 200 substantive posts would be a lot for someone new.

Requiring photos is a plus/minus. It seems onerous for that used Glock mag. If there is an item of significant value then photos are a must to me; I skip over those that put the onus on me to contact for pics. But others must ask for those pics, because usually they sell. I’m fine with leaving it up to the seller, because I can find whatever it is somewhen or somewhere else.

One thing I do like is when “I’ll take it” posted in the thread trumps all. If someone is negotiating and a different person posts “I’ll take it” then the second person gets to buy at the posted price and terms.

And yes, the last price posted on the ad should be required to remain, and not be edited out.


ETA: SIGForum is different, but as data points these are some similar forums that do not require photos:

CalGuns
M14forum
1911forum
M4Carbine.net
Smith-Wessonforum.com
Ar15.com (hugely active Classifieds)

This message has been edited. Last edited by: onegeek,

quote:

4. I’ve bought several firearms over the years. It seems common (even though not illegal) to see ads where it says your FFL must accept shipping from a non-FFL (for “private” sales only of course). I would nix that. All private sales should be sent via Ship My Gun. The seller should send a copy of his or her’s DL (as required by Ship My Gun) before payment is sent. I would then require the seller to post on a photo showing the firearm their initials as would be shown on the DL. This would be in addition to their forum name and membership date. For example, If George Washington was selling an AR-15, he would include with his pictures of the AR-15, his initials GW plus the membership data. If none of the data is included by the seller, a buyer would not have to follow through with the purchase and the sale would be delisted.

Coming from a buyer and not a seller...
With identity theft being what it is today, I feel the DL requirement for sellers is over the top.
Also, as long as its legal, who cares who ships it to your FFL?

We don't need to make it hard to complete a transaction. The ATF has that covered already.

Yeah... I dont agree with the "photos must be posted" thing. I dont have any problem showing photos to members who have expressed an interest in what I am selling. But just throwing up photos for all the lurkers to see strikes me as bad security. Farfetched? Maybe. As I see it, it appears many of the problems with the classified ads stem from WTB ads. I hate to see members lose this option but maybe the time has come.

Lots of good suggestions already. My only contribution is that I wish the forum admin would take a very dim view of anyone who attempts to low-ball a seller.

quote:

Originally posted by divil:
Lots of good suggestions already. My only contribution is that I wish the forum admin would take a very dim view of anyone who attempts to low-ball a seller.

Can you expand on that? Are you saying that a buyer should not attempt to negotiate?

In answer to your question Ronin: That is Correct.

If the seller sets too high of a price, no one will bite. The seller then either lowers their asking price or accepts that they are not going to move their product at that particular market place.

1. I would support, in idea and financially, paid access to classifieds. It would not only deter some scammers but would also help financially support the forum.

2. Have different sub forums for classifieds: WTS, WTB, dealer, non-firearm related items.

3. Can the software support a rating system of some sort?

4. All listings need to post a location. Not as specific as 72nd and Central Park in NYC but something along the lines of Southside of Jacksonville near Wounded Warrior.

5. Maybe a standard format should be followed for postings. Something such as:

-make, model
-caliber (even if it's a P228 and we all know the caliber)
-condition. NIB, ANIB, less than 100 rounds, holster wear, etc.
-open to trades? If yes, what.
-modifications. Aftermarket trigger, G10 grips, etc.
-age
-restrictions. No shipping to capacity restricted states/cities, etc.
-type. Individual, FFL, estate, etc.

I believe a standard format would reduce informational inquiries and result in only the most serious buyers/sellers responding. You don't follow the format, your ad gets nuked. Would also see who actually reads directions.

6. Bump timelines, no earlier than 5 days between bumps.

Reading the suggestions and comments so far, here are my thoughts.

Whatever new rules are put in place need to take into account additional workload they will place on site administration and sellers/buyers vs. efficacy.

I think the one firm rule para has already said will be adopted, all transaction participants must post to the thread at some point, is perhaps the best, most effective, so far. I don't see any way to enforce it, though.

Contact email in profile: I think that would be a good rule.

Only the profile email be used: There's no way for site admin to police/enforce this.

Current photos of what's actually being sold: Most other forums in which I've participated require this. No exceptions. No photos, no listing. I think that would probably be a good policy. (Does nothing for the WTB scamming, which is most prevalent, lately, however.)

Requiring photos with current date, username, and the like: So easily-photoshopped I feel them useless. (See, for example, LincolnSixEcho's comment. I saw that happen on another gun forum.)

Minimum post count or time on the forum: From what I've seen those tend not to be terribly effective. If you make the bar low enough, the scammers will slog it out until they get there. If you make it high enough to thwart that, it'll deprive legitimate users of the Classifieds. And site administration will get complaints from new members, no matter how low you make the numbers.

The site software doesn't have a way to do this, automatically, anyway. Site admin doing it manually would be overly-burdensome, IMO.

Restricting Classifieds viewing to members-only: Of limited value. Signing-up isn't terribly burdensome.

Separating WTS, WTB, and vendors: Accomplishes nothing to reduce scamming and gives admins more forums to police. Same with requiring "WTS" or "WTB" preface thread titles.

One thing one site did, for their free-for-all off-topic forum, was, before members were allowed access to it, require they "sign off" on an acknowledgement that that forum was rough-and-tumble and the admins didn't want to hear any bitching about it. I don't know if SF's forum software provides for such a capability, but, if it does it might not be a bad idea for people who want to use the classifies to be required to acknowledge they've read and understood the rules, guidelines, and anti-scam cautions and recommendations.

I think the one in the OP is a big one. That prevents scammer assholes like the recent one from pretending to be a member and sending a phony email.

I wish there was a good way to have a rating system of sorts, kinda like the feedback part of ebay. At least members would know that the person they are dealing with has made transactions before, and been legit. (I don't use the classifieds here much, but when I have, it was only from established members who have been around and participated a while, people who wouldn't toss their reputation and valued their membership here)

I know the post count threshold makes it a potential pain, but in my thinking, it makes a scammer have to invest time making posts, and that may be picked up on if some new guy comes in making a bunch a rapid fire nonsense posts. The membership as a whole (including those that don't go into the classifieds often like me) might pick up on it and alert Para or another mod. If that irritates the people who do nothing other than buy and sell here... well who cares.

Lastly, maybe a couple mods just for the classifieds to help monitor the place. One person can't be everywhere at once. Does the forum software allow a post to be temporarily hidden by a mod, for further review and if it passes them be placed back? For example one of the classifieds only mods sees a suspicious post they can "flag" it and it gets put in limbo until someone gets to the bottom of it, or the OP is contacted and found out to be legit. Then the post can be either put right back up like nothing happened or it can be nuked and the scammer outed.

Coming from a buyer and not a seller...
With identity theft being what it is today, I feel the DL requirement for sellers is over the top.
Also, as long as its legal, who cares who ships it to your FFL?

We don't need to make it hard to complete a transaction. The ATF has that covered already.[/QUOTE]

^^^
I got the idea from Ship My Gun. They require it and it hasn’t seemed to have harmed their business model.

That being said, I understand what you are saying and I certainly agree that if your state requires a SS# on your license, the SS# should certainly be blacked out or covered up. Perhaps the actual DL# too. But remember, the seller’s name and address are already documented. The DL only helps to validate the seller - not that DL# can’t be forged too but we can’t eliminate all risk.

quote:

Originally posted by Ronin1069:
Since you asked:

1: anyone who posts an ad must have a valid email in their profile, (both buyers and sellers) and that should be the only email that is used in communication about the sale.

Yup. No email in your profile, no deal. Any "seller" claiming to be member so and so that contacts you behind the scene (without posting in the thread) and refuses to put his email in Profile should raise a huge red flag. And, if you ignore this rule and go ahead and deal anyway, then get scammed, too bad. Do go cry on here and make para's BP go through the roof.

quote:

6: “I’ll take it” should be the “all stop”. If it’s not marked as “sold”, and someone calls “I’ll take it”, then whatever behind the scenes negotiations that are happening with other members end..

Yup. This is the rule that I have personally used for years that helped eliminate any misunderstanding or confusion. First "I'll take it" posted in the thread, with a follow-up confirmation email, wins. No exceptions. Once had a member contacting me via email saying he'll take it, but he didn't post in the thread first. Another member posted in the thread within minutes of that saying "I'll take it". Guess who got the gun? No exceptions means no exceptions.

I like the 200 post count threshold. I have experience with another forum which has a much lower standard and some folks will register and then mass post so they can sell their stuff. They call it sandbagging, not sure what the etymology of that term is though.

I'm not a big buyer or seller, but I've made a few transactions through the classifieds here over the years, and they've all gone great. I'll suggest that if the classifieds are primarily intended as a benefit for the members, blocking them from public view wouldn't be the worst thing in the world. It would at least make them harder for scammers to access. It would reduce the potential customer base a bit for the sellers, but I for one would prefer to limit my business here to trusted, established members anyway.

While I can appreciate the thought behind a post-count rule, I'm a member of a local board that requires "50 quality posts" before members can use the classifieds. It's a good rule in theory, but it has some huge downsides:

1. It appears to be a moderation nightmare. Mods have to review and determine if a poster's posts actually qualify as "quality"...which seems like a whole lot of work. I'm not a mod so I'm not sure how they go about it...but I don't envy them the job.

2. You get new people joining and then spewing a rash of inane posts all over the board that have to be pruned. Then these people get mad because their posts got deleted and their count got docked, and they have to get smacked down by the mods.

3. It creates an unwelcoming environment for new members who actually want to get involved in discussions because they get accused by the membership of just trying to build post count to get into the classifieds. Sometimes these accusations aren't wholly unfounded, but I've also seen a few times where the mobs got out of hand.

While a simple date of membership requirement for access to the classifieds doesn't solve all the potential problems, I think it would be a lot easier to implement and enforce, with fewer drawbacks than a post-count model.

These have already been mentioned.
I would like to 2nd them.
Minimum post other than in the Classifieds. Maybe 50?
Email must be in Profile.
And i also like the Idea if a conversation is going on about an ad it should at minimum email sent.