quote:

Originally posted by ECSquirrel:

quote:

Originally posted by slosig:

The reality is that police are people. If you simply look at a cross section of people there is going to be a certain percentage of "problem children" in any sizable group, be it LEOs, doctors, lawyers, EMTs/Parmedics, garbage collectors, whatever.* My experience leads me to believe that percentage is probably lower in a law enforcement organization (at least a competently run one) than the general population, but that there will still be a non-zero percentage in any significant sized agency.

In this case, it is clear that the agency is nothing like competently run, and its percentage of "problem children" may approach or even exceed that of the general population. I may have a bad attitude, but I think heads should roll over this and it should start at the top (mayor, chief) and work down from there.

*SIGforum may be the exception that proves the rule as Para seems to be pretty efficient at removing "problem children".

Officers do and should get the benefit of any doubt in a situation such as this. I think you have misidentified the situation here- time not that cops are people. You're right that any group, no matter how good the grip might be, is going to have a few bad apples. It's not the bad apples that are the real issue. In this case, the victim doesn't have confidence that the police are policing their own, and that plays into a broader narritive. Cops should get the benefit of the doubt, but they should also be held to a higher standard.

I won't hypothesize on whether or not the behavior is criminal, but is there any question whether this officer, as well as the supervisor, should ever have their badge returned?

I may not have been clear, but definitely was not misidentifying the situation. The problem is clearly that this agency is horribly mismanaged. The officer and LT involved are obvious symptoms as is the fact that nothing was done until the videos went viral. Sure, these two idiots should be fired, sued, and perhaps charged, but that isn't nearly enough. They should have been removed long before this event ever happened. As I said initially, heads should roll over this and it should start at the top (mayor, chief) and work down from there. If the two inDUHviduals in this video are wandering around representing SLCPD, how many more like them do you think this administration has hired, trained, and supported? Simply addressing symptoms isn't good enough. You need to go in and rip out the cancer.

ETA: If the rumor mill that gw3971 posted about it right, it should be whoever is at the top that should be sued and perhaps charged. These two may have been guilty of criminal stupity in following a patently illegal order, but shouldn't be the only ones taking a hit for it. I hope that they have tape of their running it up the chain to the top...

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:
That's not what I'm saying, Para. The cop was wrong based upon what I read. This policy, or things like it, has been done before in other places, and it has never worked out to the hospitals, or patients benefit.

The hospitals that have tried stuff like this have become war zones, and people that don't want to be treated in a war zone go other places. The hospital in question will lose revenue, and that drives decision making.

I have two business degrees from the Univ of Utah, teach business in Silicon Valley; have immediate family and close friends in the medical industry in Salt Lake, including the Univ Hospital. I was a US Army Reservist at a hospital in Salt Lake for six years. Ie, I know a little about the industry, and about that particular operation.

One would have to look at the marginal revenue vs the marginal cost of this policy. I really doubt there will be any appreciable difference in marginal operating income.

And it seems to me the Salt Lake police had a month to address the issue, and they did nothing. Maybe the Salt Lake police department will lose revenue. Of course they will make it up by issuing more traffic tickets to doctors and nurses. You have shown us here, that when it comes down to it, some policemen mostly serve themselves.

And as I think of things, I have a friend from my Army Reserves hospital unit who now works for the Univ Police, I should touch base with him again.

The U of U health system was already looking for a new CEO. In the meantime, they brought back the retired CEO for a base salary of $67,000 a month (plus expenses).

http://archive.sltrib.com/arti...=5319130&itype=CMSID

quote:

Originally posted by Scoutmaster:

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:
That's not what I'm saying, Para. The cop was wrong based upon what I read. This policy, or things like it, has been done before in other places, and it has never worked out to the hospitals, or patients benefit.

The hospitals that have tried stuff like this have become war zones, and people that don't want to be treated in a war zone go other places. The hospital in question will lose revenue, and that drives decision making.

I have two business degrees from the Univ of Utah, teach business in Silicon Valley; have immediate family and close friends in the medical industry in Salt Lake, including the Univ Hospital. I was a US Army Reservist at a hospital in Salt Lake for six years. Ie, I know a little about the industry, and about that particular operation.

One would have to look at the marginal revenue vs the marginal cost of this policy. I really doubt there will be any appreciable difference in marginal operating income.

And it seems to me the Salt Lake police had a month to address the issue, and they did nothing. Maybe the Salt Lake police department will lose revenue. Of course they will make it up by issuing more traffic tickets to doctors and nurses. You have shown us here, that when it comes down to it, some policemen mostly serve themselves.

And as I think of things, I have a friend from my Army Reserves hospital unit who now works for the Univ Police, I should touch base with him again.

Despite your saber rattling, you do bring a good point to bear. If the hospital, through the university, has their own certified police agency, likely they won't feel a difference. Private hospitals only have a security force that is non-sworn. They have to rely on contract police services.

If in fact the university police serves their security needs, the world will keep spinning without backlash.

quote:

Originally posted by deepocean:

quote:

Originally posted by gw3971:
This hospital has had numerous run ins with law enforcement over the last couple of years.

Has local LE had the same issue with the other hospital system in the valley, which is arguably bigger in a lot of ways than the U's system?

No. Most of the other hospitals(IHC) have off duty officers working security for them.
They are hospital employee's.

quote:

Originally posted by gw3971:

Most of the other hospitals(IHC) have off duty officers working security for them.
They are hospital employee's.

That explains a lot. Thank you for your posts.

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:


If in fact the university police serves their security needs, the world will keep spinning without backlash.

Jerry,

If you read to the end of this article , you will see UofU has their own police force.

quote:

having to call your supervisor and have them work through details with another authority for an hour is unacceptable? seems pretty normal. I don't see a badge as making anyone king of the world, where everyone must obey without question. No experience here, but how does one go from "DUI suspect" to having a warrant sworn out? is that automatic? I thought getting a warrant took a judge to sign off? In which case, the story of "prior run ins" stinks too.

Waiting and hour or so with a warrant is unacceptable. The whole reason the warrants are issued is the bodies ability of metabolize alcohol. Making leo's wait is obstruction. Getting a warrant is pretty easy.. Odor of alcohol, driving pattern, failed FST's, injury accident are about all you need to get a DUI warrant. We have an online warrant system and I can get a warrant for blood in ten to fifteen minutes. I wouldn't say its automatic but it's pretty close. Judges sign the warrant online and we provide a copy to the hospital and the suspect. We are also required to do a return of service to the judge with blood results.

quote:

Originally posted by gw3971:

quote:

having to call your supervisor and have them work through details with another authority for an hour is unacceptable? seems pretty normal. I don't see a badge as making anyone king of the world, where everyone must obey without question. No experience here, but how does one go from "DUI suspect" to having a warrant sworn out? is that automatic? I thought getting a warrant took a judge to sign off? In which case, the story of "prior run ins" stinks too.

Waiting and hour or so with a warrant is unacceptable. The whole reason the warrants are issued is the bodies ability of metabolize alcohol. Making leo's wait is obstruction. Getting a warrant is pretty easy.. Odor of alcohol, driving pattern, failed FST's, injury accident are about all you need to get a DUI warrant. We have an online warrant system and I can get a warrant for blood in ten to fifteen minutes. I wouldn't say its automatic but it's pretty close. Judges sign the warrant online and we provide a copy to the hospital and the suspect. We are also required to do a return of service to the judge with blood results.

thanks - I assumed that all the "precursors" to warrant were sufficient probable cause to breathalyze or blood test - didn't know it took a warrant.

quote:

Originally posted by deepocean:
The U of U health system was already looking for a new CEO. In the meantime, they brought back the retired CEO for a base salary of $67,000 a month (plus expenses)...

Seems to me both the hospital industry and the law enforcement industry are there to serve the public. Also seems to me that both industries can succumb to the temptation of unrighteous dominion, to serve self in the name of serving the public. They just do it in different ways.

quote:

Originally posted by DrDan:

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:


If in fact the university police serves their security needs, the world will keep spinning without backlash.

Jerry,

If you read to the end of this article , you will see UofU has their own police force.

IIRC, the hospital police didn't/wouldn't interfere with Salt Lake police. Maybe that policy will change.

Gold Cross fired Payne from his ambulance driving job, effective immediately.

quote:

Originally posted by deepocean:
Gold Cross fired Payne from his ambulance driving job, effective immediately.

"Wonder how this will affect my Gold Cross job...I'll bring them all of the transients and take good patients elsewhere"

That should be only the start of this monumental douchebag's problems.

Two words, jackass: Civil Suit

Enjoy, Mister Badass

quote:

Originally posted by deepocean:
Gold Cross fired Payne from his ambulance driving job, effective immediately.

For me that is a telling comment which puts the officers actions a category different than "I was only following orders". As I commented earlier, I wonder what's going through the officers mind now.

quote:

We have an online warrant system and I can get a warrant for blood in ten to fifteen minutes. I wouldn't say its automatic but it's pretty close. Judges sign the warrant online and we provide a copy to the hospital and the suspect. We are also required to do a return of service to the judge with blood results.

Da' freak? An online warrant system, eh? How lovely.

I still don't know how the nurse was "obstructing".

In the same situation, I would do as she did and then walk away and over to my computer and loudly announce "If you illegally draw my patient's blood, I will be documenting it in the patient's record along with your names and badge numbers. And I'll be very happy to testify, when he sues you".

That, and emailing all the details to the CEO, CNO, and Chief Physician.

Try and charge me with obstructing. Good luck.

Bruce

quote:

Originally posted by Balzé Halzé:

quote:

We have an online warrant system and I can get a warrant for blood in ten to fifteen minutes. I wouldn't say its automatic but it's pretty close. Judges sign the warrant online and we provide a copy to the hospital and the suspect. We are also required to do a return of service to the judge with blood results.

Da' freak? An online warrant system, eh? How lovely.

Its been in place for nearly ten years. Before that we did telephone warrants. They were even faster.

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:
Plus, all the hospital staff that have enjoyed professional courtesy on traffic violations? That is over with. The hospital will drastically change their tune soon. I've seen this type of stuff go down before. And it isn't going to work out like they (and some of the public) think. I also hope that the hospital security staff is beefed up to handle the fights in the ER on their own. I suspect if there was any contract security that the agency was providing that is over.

So in other words, don't act like a professional because one of your own acted like a dick.

quote:

Originally posted by gw3971:

quote:

Originally posted by Balzé Halzé:

quote:

We have an online warrant system and I can get a warrant for blood in ten to fifteen minutes. I wouldn't say its automatic but it's pretty close. Judges sign the warrant online and we provide a copy to the hospital and the suspect. We are also required to do a return of service to the judge with blood results.

Da' freak? An online warrant system, eh? How lovely.

Its been in place for nearly ten years. Before that we did telephone warrants. They were even faster.

Its the same here. Electronic warrants, electronic protective orders, etc, has been the norm for a long, long time.