I think what it will come down to is that if we want a revolution on how we are treated as passengers, United fired the first shot, and it won't be the last

yes, all the other airlines have that clause in their 'contracts' - but when people start costing them a lot of money by either taking a different mode of travel or forcing the airlines hand with bad publicity, things will change

there is only one that an that an airline cares about - any airline

its money

it doesn't give a flying fuck about a paying passenger, its simply a means to get get your money - it would rather have a box it can crush or drop that won't complain

I absolutely detest the airlines - ALL of them, but United is the absolute worst in terms of service and I switched to Delta and was so pissed that them I resorted to Southwest

I now live in Arizona where I can DRIVE to San Diego, LA, Torrance, Vegas and other places where I spend half my professional life

any place else, I will assign another of my engineers and they can fly to San Francisco or wherever

the airlines have picked a fight with the passengers and I hope it escalates - I really do because what the airlines forgot is that without us, they're grounded - no pennies from us, no pennies per seat mile in revenue

it will have to get a lot uglier before it gets better, but United has been shown as the poster child for how not to run an airline

I hope they continue to crater on more bad news over the next few weeks - that will make life more miserable for United management and perhaps they will see that the people are actually the customer, not non-rev crew

there is an old adage in business - the customer is ALWAYS right.

quote:

Originally posted by entropy:
Everyone is more than welcome to an opinion. But when that opinion turns into insulting other members, thier careers, and their professionalism its no longer an opinion...

I have nearly 10,000 posts and over 10 years on this board of yours. Quite frankly this thread is an embarassment, as are some of the responses.

Your toy, your sandbox. Do with me what you wish.

Have a nice evening.

No, entropy, even if you don't like it one bit, it's still just a bunch of opinions, and that includes the people in this forum who work in the airline industry.

I've spent several minutes looking over this thread. You left it early on, and after I'd said a mere two words to you. And now you're getting dramatic, showing your throat and preparing for sacrifice. You're dancing all by your lonesome on this. Nobody has the knives out for you.

In this forum- each and every day- we express critical opinions of people and their professions- all sorts of professions. Doctors and lawyers get Hell from time to time, quite a bit, come to think of it. As I said earlier, just about everyone has flown commercially and so can relate to this incident. Would you have us believe that because we don't work in your industry, we cannot possibly relate to what we know of this incident?

Just take it easy, huh?

quote:

United got jammed up at the last minute. Every airline would prefer to deny boarding, if necessary, up in the gate area. They screwed up by not doing that. Do this in the gate area and there is no video. People screw up though, they let 4 people on that they shouldn't have. 3 got off with no video. 1 acted like a child and LE busted his lip and removed him.

They only got jammed up at the last minute because they figured it would be easier to fuck over passengers whose asses were already in their seats, than look for another way to get those flight crew members to their destination.

quote:

Originally posted by ugeesta:

quote:

Originally posted by Elk Hunter:
Question:

All this money being bandied about for people who voluntarily give up their seats: Is that actually paid in cash to those who give up their seats, or is it voucher type thing good for some future travel, etc?. With United in this case.

I have read both versions around this shit sandwich event.

It's a voucher for future air travel. Have to use it in 12 months or it expires. It works better for the business traveler as the recreational traveler does not fly that much.

Thanks, that is what I figured. So, for the infrequent traveler that "deal" is a waste of energy, time.

There is no reason that overbooking is the only way airlines can offer low, competitive fares.

I realize it's convenient for the airlines to make the claim, but logically, it's just not true.

Just like how Walmart doesn't get to sell the same lightbulb twice, yet somehow still manages to make a profit.

quote:

Para, I can't show you a single video of denied boarding. I think you know why but I will answer anyway. When people are denied boarding they don't act like this guy did. Period.

This guy was not denied boarding!!!!!

His ass was already in the seat!

UAL is totally responsible for this shit sandwich!

I find it hard to believe that UAL loaded all the passengers, and suddenly discover they need 4 seats for a flight crew who does not need to be at the destination until tomorrow.

Not to mention it would have been one helluva lot cheaper for UAL to charter a damned small plane and fly that flight crew to the destination.

I fly a week from today, on UAL since I have not-refundable tickets, and will see how well they treat us sheep on that 8 hours of being trapped on their planes.

I got a $500 Amazon gift card in January on Delta for taking a voluntary bump. The result is that I got to my destination 90 minutes later than scheduled.

The kicker - the flight I got bumped off got delayed in Detroit on the layover and arrived at the final destination only 15 minutes earlier than I did.

I'll take cash/gift cards over vouchers all day long.

That is what I am talking about Elk. You guys won't listen to people who live this life and know some things that you guys don't. I am not claiming some genius. I am no genius. But I am in this line of work and some of the things written here have just been plain incorrect. I don't jump into threads and tell guys who are general contractors the right way to build a deck, just because well, I own a deck. There is no way to get 4 crewmen from ORD to IIU and have them be legal to actually work a flight the next morning. You can't put them in an UBER and drive them to IIU and expect that to be legal to fly. There is no airplane to "rent" and send them either. ORD doesn't have planes to rent. There isn't a train, a bus, nothing but your airplane to get them there and have them legal to work. If they aren't legal there is no point in getting them there.

We are trying to interject reality into this discussion and getting crushed. I'm not upset or angry. I'm an old Navy guy, I have said many times that I've been called worse by better! lol

Look at the timeline. This flight was hours late due to weather. There wasn't another flight to take. It was this flight or the flight tomorrow, the entire flight tomorrow gets canx'd. Poor planning by United? Maybe, but when the weather starts misbehaving it becomes real difficult to schedule stuff.

Put this one issue to bed. This is not my opinion, this is a fact. The only way to get a crew to another city is to fly them. If its the last flight of the day you end up with a decision with no great choices. You pick the least bad and hope somebody doesn't throw a potted plant through a window.

quote:

Originally posted by JALLEN:
Her claims raise questions about what happened that resulted in this guy being dragged off. If they turn out to be erroneous, wrong, etc., fine.

But as we see so often in crime stories, the first media story isn't necessarily the whole story, even on video. Maybe it didn't happen the way we think. Let's see. Let the facts form our opinions.

United has conducted an internal investigation and according to the CEO:

quote:

Munoz said the problem resulted from a "system failure" that prevented employees from using "common sense" in the situation and that Dr. David Dao , whom security officers dragged by his hands, on his back, from the cabin before takeoff, was not at fault .

I'll take him at his word - if he changes his story later during settlement negotiations I'm sure the question he will be asked is "Were you lying then, or are you lying now?"

As to entropy, I hope he or the others in the airlines industry don't take offense at my opinion that the boarding people at United made a very bad business (and very bad common sense) decision to use physical force. There was a long list of options available and the person in charge at that location made a very bad decision - an opinion that is shared by the CEO at United. That does not mean every person in the airlines industry is bad or to be blamed.

quote:

Originally posted by pedropcola:
... If its the last flight of the day you end up with a decision with no great choices...

Why didn't the gate agent offer MORE $$ and/or a free ticket? How hard is that?

Elk, we can get into a game of semantics but denied boarding is a term that applies at any time. Believe me or not but that it just the way it is. Once you cross into the airplane you aren't exempt from denied boarding. I get it, the nomenclature is confusing but there isn't a different term once you board. Words usually matter but in this case it really doesn't.

United getting United personnel in position to do the job for United, is United's problem. All the stuff you're telling us that we don't know or don't understand, doesn't matter. It has nothing to do with what know of this incident, which is entirely sufficient for us to form opinions.

All sorts of professions get slammed here. Why are airline employees special? Honestly, I don't get it.

quote:

Originally posted by Monk:
There is no reason that overbooking is the only way airlines can offer low, competitive fares.

I realize it's convenient for the airlines to make the claim, but logically, it's just not true.

Just like how Walmart doesn't get to sell the same lightbulb twice, yet somehow still manages to make a profit.

That is so remotely not even a valid comparison that I don't know where to start.

quote:

They would comp you handsomely, get you a hotel and dinner, but you absolutely would not have that seat. Its not personal, its just business.

I don't think a single person in this thread has disputed that this is what should have happened. In fact, the federal requirement is up to 400% of the cost of your ticket, or $1350. Those are federal minimums. The airline is free to do more than that, and as you note, sometimes do so.

The mistake here wasn't bumping and it wasn't the contract. It was using violence on a peaceful paying passenger instead of upping the compensation until 4 people said "I'm off the plane."

The mistake here is saying that the airline's offer was reasonable and final and that they were within their rights to call the cops and get a guy's lip split because they were too cheap to make the next offer to encourage volunteers.

The problem may have been originally caused by the weather, but it was United's problem. Not the good doctor's problem. United was obligated legally and morally to solve this problem without resort to violence. Maybe that plane doesn't go today. Maybe United loses a bunch of money. Maybe hundreds of people are inconvenienced. It doesn't matter. None of those things give United the right to split someone's lip. This is at it's most basic a civil contract dispute between a customer and a corporation. The corporation used the police power of the federal government, exercised through the transit cops to overpower their opposition, get their way, and intimidate all future customers and now they are trying to hide behind the law by saying what they did was technically legal.

First, I dispute that it was technically legal; frankly I don't think it was, certainly not at the time they did it, proportionality, reasonableness and all that.

Second, even if technically legal, it was wrong. Both by United and by the cops.

Thus, fuck United sideways with a rusty iron pipe, and give the stupid transit cops a righteous barbwire rogering as well.

This situation is absolutely full of stupid, and it is indefensible.

I am taking it easy. Trust me. Im not showing my throat for sacrifice either. I understand that this forum is "private property". Your toy box. Im being respectful. This theme should strike a chord in this thread. Unfortunately for many it hasnt.

I dont dance, never could dance, and have zero desire to dance...by my lonesome or with anyone else. What I do see happening in this thread is the shutting down of people who have direct knowledge and expertise on things. This thread deteriorated in a guided format just like the El Faro thread did. Its a shame. This forum has a lot of talent...just like you say. But when that talent is continually shut down and ignored it turns into just another Facebook rant or ARFCOM shit show.

On post #15 of this thread, you say you have not flown since 1999. When I first sat in a cockpit, it was common for people to wear coats and ties. Now? They have to be told to put shoes on, let their "service animals" crap in the isle, and routinely act rude and uncivilized. Poor behavior begets poor behavior. On all sides. It seems nobody wants to hear this. This is surprising considering the general makeup of this board. You should go buy yourself a ticket. May I suggest perhaps ATL to LAS on a Friday night. Fly anyone. Soak it in. Then get back to me.

As an aside, there are a few *FACTS* on this incident that have not yet come out. My guess is the CEO of UAL realized he had lost and made a business decision not to go forward. It would just make them look that much worse in the public eye. It does explain why he originally doubled down however. We'll see...

Everyone LOVES to hate airlines. Sometimes its for good reason. Just as often its due to ignorance on how the system works, and as important...how it got to be this way. There is MORE than enough blame to go around.

entropy, do you actually think people are going to listen to someone who works for an airline, and then discount everything that we know about this incident, as well as our personal experience with commercial flight? You are dreaming. Plain and simple, that's not going to happen, not even if people act like they're taking it all in. How's that for a dose of Truth?

Regarding your remarks about this thread and the Faro thread- do you have something you wish to say to me? I thought you said you didn't dance. Spit it out. What's on your mind? I'll tell you quite frankly that I resent what you're implying. I've moderated thousands upon thousands of discussions in this forum, with no interjection of my own opinion, and you're focusing on threads in which I expressed strong opinions and made unequivocal statements. I've earned that right. Earned it. Through countless thousands of hours of my life in this forum, I have damn well earned the right to express my opinions.

You have something you want to say to me?

I've seen all kinds of reasons offered for this Charlie Foxtrot. I want to hear an excuse. Just one.

And I have EARNED the right to express MY opinion over 30 years and over 25,000 flight hours in a cockpit. I have seen every side of this business, the good, the bad and everything in between. Like I said numerous times now just like MY cockpit and MY airplane (by law) is MY toybox...this toybox is yours. I wont be goaded into saying something rash. Im more professional than that. Experience in my field has told me when to smile and go on my merry way.

The EL Faro thread? I see the following similarity. Like now, there are folks that are "SMEs" on the issue. In the El Faro thread it was a professional mariner. We try to provide insight into an incident that is complicated, and an angle most folks cannot see. (Yes...like it or not the UAL situation was complicated.) The actions may not have been correct (just like El Faro) but the incident was FAR from black and white. When I say that, Im not condoning what happened in either incident, just trying to lend an insight into all the moving parts the lay person doesnt see.

We try to explain this but are met with indignance and ridicule. Its frustraring and perplexing. I know JALLEN and I have crossed paths a few times on legal things. His world isnt as "black and white" as mine is as far as the legal system goes. That is solely due to my ignorance and I accept that. I do however respect the man, who he is and what he has accomplished in his field. I use that as a moderator for my own somewhat unwashed opinions.

What we have here is a feeding frenzy. Its not the civilized discussion I have come to expect from this Board.

An email is in my profile. If you want to air this out further that is your option. Imwould be more than happy to talk on the phone as well. Its just a shame that this thread has been allowed to deteriorate into a mess.

quote:

Originally posted by Monk:
There is no reason that overbooking is the only way airlines can offer low, competitive fares.

I realize it's convenient for the airlines to make the claim, but logically, it's just not true.

Just like how Walmart doesn't get to sell the same lightbulb twice, yet somehow still manages to make a profit.

Comparing an airline with Walmart is comparing kumquats to carrots, the cost dynamics are entirely different. 80% of Walmart costs are variable, 80% of an airline costs are fixed.