quote:

Originally posted by JALLEN:
Other than that, is her account accurate?

She wasn't there, so it was just her opinion - that the airlines are noble servants and the peons flying should be thankful that they care so much about us that they are willing to order security to assault passengers for the greater good.

Her opinion carries no more weight than anyone else who has chimed in on this thread. She is not privy to any information that the rest of us don't have readily available.

quote:

Originally posted by medic451:
I just hate people like that smug woman. Its like being in the military and having some NCOs wife go on a power trip and yell at you for something on base-like her position as his wife means jack-diddly shit to you.

Well, she ended her therapy with "Tailwinds", so, you know, she's down with the lingo.

Probably got a picture of herself sitting in the Captain's seat. You know, for Facebook.

quote:

Originally posted by BamaJeepster:

quote:

Originally posted by JALLEN:
Other than that, is her account accurate?

She wasn't there, so it was just her opinion - that the airlines are noble servants and the peons flying should be thankful that they care so much about us that they are willing to order security to assault passengers for the greater good.

Her opinion carries no more weight than anyone else who has chimed in on this thread. She is not privy to any information that the rest of us don't have readily available.

I'm not talking about her opinion.

She claims that the man was out of the plane and ran back in. She claims that security had taken over, etc. as regulations require. It wasn't some berserk flight attendant yanking a guy out just for mouthing off.

What happened?

The only thing worse than irresponsible uninformed speculation is irresponsible, uninformed speculation that happens to be accurate.

quote:

You guys probably don't care but I and every other aviator on this board could come up with tons of reasons besides overbooking which didn't happen here btw, for why someone or many someones might have to be removed even though they bought a ticket.

You are right. Nobody cares about the other reasons, because as you correctly pointed out, that isn't what happened here. There is no defense for treating your customers the way this man was treated. You might as well tell us beatings will continue until moral improves.

quote:

Originally posted by JALLEN:

quote:

Originally posted by medic451:

quote:

Originally posted by charlie12:
Just read this one From a pilots wife

Wow, shes married to a pilot! Her opinion must be so relevant (she even mentioned the fine print!) . Not bashing you for posting it though charlie12, I just hate people like that smug woman. Its like being in the military and having some NCOs wife go on a power trip and yell at you for something on base-like her position as his wife means jack-diddly shit to you.

Other than that, is her account accurate?

I have a friend who married two pilots. Divorced both, and is now dating the shrink that gave her counseling. True story!

But who cares. The bottom line is that UA could have completely avoided all of this. It's like Wells Fargo and all the fake accounts. Some things should just never happen at a professional organization. Especially in spiffy, government "regulated" industries. It's a culture of incompetence and poor leadership. I find it hard to believe the only opportunity for using better judgement was at the point of forcefully removing this guy.

Question:

All this money being bandied about for people who voluntarily give up their seats: Is that actually paid in cash to those who give up their seats, or is it voucher type thing good for some future travel, etc?. With United in this case.

I have read both versions around this shit sandwich event.

quote:

Originally posted by JALLEN:
I'm not talking about her opinion.

She claims that the man was out of the plane and ran back in. She claims that security had taken over, etc. as regulations require. It wasn't some berserk flight attendant yanking a guy out just for mouthing off.

What happened?

The only thing worse than irresponsible uninformed speculation is irresponsible, uninformed speculation that happens to be accurate.

She wasn't there, didn't witness it and has no more information than the rest of us do.

There have been multiple accounts given in the media and I've seen no direct interviews with someone who was there.

The account that I've seen most often is that the video of him being dragged off occurred first, and then he got back on the plane. That's just an account in the media - I've seen no sworn statements, police reports or direct interviews with a witness, so we are all speculating based on the video that has been publicly aired.

Nothing that she said changes my opinion that United is at fault and United screwed the pooch. Regardless of what the guy did, this should never have escalated to this level. Competent management would have ensured that this be resolved without the use of force.

You guys are intermixing two completely separate things. And you are just wrong. You don't see videos like this because of two main points. One, usually and preferably this happens in the gate area not on the plane, and two, almost no one looks three cops in the eye and says "fuck you, make me". If this guy's behavior of ignoring a lawful order (yep internet lawyers just cause you don't like it doesn't mean its not perfectly legal. And yes it is in your contract of carriage with EVERY airline in America, contrary to what you might think)

Yes, I can provide direction to DOT data on involuntary denied boardings. They publish that data every month/year. Google DOT involuntary denied boardings. Last month I could find tabulated was December. Delta was 3rd, United was 6th.

If you think your airline of choice doesn't piss people off by denying them boarding you are willfully ignoring the facts.

United got jammed up at the last minute. Every airline would prefer to deny boarding, if necessary, up in the gate area. They screwed up by not doing that. Do this in the gate area and there is no video. People screw up though, they let 4 people on that they shouldn't have. 3 got off with no video. 1 acted like a child and LE busted his lip and removed him.

The alternative to what happened here was to let him stay on and turn to the next person and deny them boarding. That crew had to get on that plane or the next day the cascade of cancelled flights and people not making it anyway would have blossomed. I know you guys think I'm making this up but I'm not. If Delta Airlines needed your seat or tomorrow's flight and the 200- ? people who would now be missing their flight because of no crew - guess what? Delta would deny you boarding. They would comp you handsomely, get you a hotel and dinner, but you absolutely would not have that seat. Its not personal, its just business.

I think I read that article by the pilot wife. If you guys could get past the smugness, she is telling the truth.

Lets see, overbooking, nope. Employees basically joyriding, nope. United employees manhandling this guy, uhh, hell no.

This was a mistake by United of not catching that the seats were needed prior to boarding. This guys boorish behavior was what made this news. He forced the cops into making this video fodder.

If you want to boycott United, knock yourself out, I don't work there. If you do it thinking this could never happen at your favorite airline you are merely kidding yourselves.

To answer your question directly Para, you don't see this often because clearly prior to boarding is the preferred method of denied boarding and secondly, most people grumble, but they comply. Nobody likes being involuntarily denied boarding but nobody likes thunderstorms, mechanical issues, and delays either but sometimes they happen.

quote:

Originally posted by Elk Hunter:
Question:

All this money being bandied about for people who voluntarily give up their seats: Is that actually paid in cash to those who give up their seats, or is it voucher type thing good for some future travel, etc?. With United in this case.

I have read both versions around this shit sandwich event.

It's a voucher for future air travel. Have to use it in 12 months or it expires. It works better for the business traveler as the recreational traveler does not fly that much.

My dad was a pilot, so there....
He used to see a homeless guy begging for change and mutter outloud "Wonder who he used to fly for..."

quote:

Originally posted by pedropcola:
To answer your question directly Para, you don't see this often because clearly prior to boarding is the preferred method of denied boarding and secondly, most people grumble, but they comply. Nobody likes being involuntarily denied boarding but nobody likes thunderstorms, mechanical issues, and delays either but sometimes they happen.

I must have missed it. You say "you don't see this often". Other than the United incident, where is the evidence of a passenger being forcibly removed under similar circumstances? Show me something, please.

This single event has sprouted so many funny comments and memes.

I will say that I think the police screwed this one up too. The "expanded" video that came out today seems to show that they jumped the gun going hands on with the guy. Maybe there is more that I am not seeing, and UAL is definitely to blame on this, but I think the cops could have handled it better as well.

Now hear what I am saying. I believe that policing is a hands on sport. When the time comes, and you have exhausted all resources, get it on. Be swift and end it quick. I just don't know if going hands on was quite the right play here.

The whole "refusing a lawful order" thing? If I went hands on with everyone that I could get away with going hands on with, I would get nothing done in a day but fights and use of force reports. Being able to, doesn't always mean you should. Going hands on because you can, is for rookies that haven't been sued yet, and TV cops. The Chicago Aviation police will get their checkbook out for this one. UAL will get their checkbook out for this one. If it took another five minutes of negotiations, it probably would have taken about 500k a minute in savings (or more).

I think they jumped the gun based upon what I have observed.

UAL? I fly out of my local airport a few times a year on UAL. Never again. Oh, because of this? This is just a good reason. The last three times I have flown UAL have been a train wreck looking for tracks. The last time was a mega-cluster that the PR department gave me a $300 voucher (along with everyone else on the flight) because of such poor/inept decision making my the crew at ORD.

To answer one other guys post, here goes. The MSM reported overbooking and you guys bought it hook line and sinker for 10 pages of this thread.

"Nobody cares about the other reasons, because as you correctly pointed out, that isn't what happened here"

What happened here is that weather caused all kinds of delays that day. The flight in question was hours delayed already. Flights all over the place were delayed due to GOD (weather). When this happens you guys can complain all day long but there is a huge Federal regulation FAR 117 that specifies exactly how long pilots can remain on duty. Theoretically this is for your SAFETY. Tired pilots make mistakes going hundreds of miles an hour, that is bad. So when weather causes massive delays (see above) crews start timing out. Nothing can be done about it. There is no relief from these rules. Once this begins, it usually cascades, you have to start taking crews and making them fly extra, this works right up until you run out of legal crews. Then you start flying in crews which is what happened here.

There was no grand conspiracy. Weather caused lots of delays. Crews started timing out. They tried to get crews in place to avoid further delays for literally thousands of other passengers.

You guys literally have zero idea of the scope of operations we are discussing. On a clear day with no mechanical issues it is complex. Weather starts fucking with you and it can go to hell in a hurry.

If that crew doesn't get to IIU, then that flight is cancelled. Not a conspiracy, just a lot of moving parts that weather, mechanicals, and yes poor human decisions can make worse.

quote:

Originally posted by pedropcola:
You guys literally have zero idea of the scope of operations we are discussing.

Do two favors for me:

1. Stop telling us about how ignorant we are. If you want people to listen to you, you'll cut it out.

2. Present your evidence that other passengers have been forcibly removed under similar circumstances. Absent any such evidence, there's nothing left to say.

Para, I can't show you a single video of denied boarding. I think you know why but I will answer anyway. When people are denied boarding they don't act like this guy did. Period.

Nobody videos somebody who is annoyed that they missed their flight. Now, if that guy then throws a potted plant through a window, he will make the news. That is what happened here.

Para I have been listening to people spout aviation related "facts" through 18 pages. Most aviators on this thread have shut up (probably wisely) because any facts that are told to the group are met with complete ridicule. I never called anyone ignorant. There is a whole lot of misinformation being passed through this thread masquerading as facts. I answered your question in my last post.

You don't have scenarios like this because no one faces off against three cops. I absolutely have witnessed denied boarding on an aircraft. It happens, nobody does it on purpose, and I have never heard of a sober person acting like this to police officers on a plane or in a terminal. After 9/11 most people recognize that inside an airport isn't the place to show your ass.

No, I can't show you a video but that isn't proof of anything other than I can't show you a video.

I didn't ask you for a video. I asked you for evidence.

This thread may upset you but just about everyone here has flown commercially at some point in their life. We don't need to work in the airline industry to be able to decipher this incident, but it's telling that you think we're not qualified to form an opinion about it.

Everyone is more than welcome to an opinion. But when that opinion turns into insulting other members, thier careers, and their professionalism its no longer an opinion...

I have nearly 10,000 posts and over 10 years on this board of yours. Quite frankly this thread is an embarassment, as are some of the responses.

Your toy, your sandbox. Do with me what you wish.

Have a nice evening.

quote:

Originally posted by pedropcola:
Para I have been listening to people spout aviation related "facts" through 18 pages. Most aviators on this thread have shut up (probably wisely) because any facts that are told to the group are met with complete ridicule. I never called anyone ignorant. There is a whole lot of misinformation being passed through this thread masquerading as facts. I answered your question in my last post.

You don't have scenarios like this because no one faces off against three cops. I absolutely have witnessed denied boarding on an aircraft. It happens, nobody does it on purpose, and I have never heard of a sober person acting like this to police officers on a plane or in a terminal. After 9/11 most people recognize that inside an airport isn't the place to show your ass.

No, I can't show you a video but that isn't proof of anything other than I can't show you a video.

You're defending the behavior of UAL after the CEO has backpedled his defense and at least one cop has been suspended. I have had CNBC running in the background at work. Countless CEOs have said all week that Munoz fucked up. UAL is a business; the business of flying paying customers. This is not how you treat a customer.

quote:

Originally posted by BamaJeepster:

quote:

Originally posted by JALLEN:
I'm not talking about her opinion.

She claims that the man was out of the plane and ran back in. She claims that security had taken over, etc. as regulations require. It wasn't some berserk flight attendant yanking a guy out just for mouthing off.

What happened?

The only thing worse than irresponsible uninformed speculation is irresponsible, uninformed speculation that happens to be accurate.

She wasn't there, didn't witness it and has no more information than the rest of us do.

There have been multiple accounts given in the media and I've seen no direct interviews with someone who was there.

The account that I've seen most often is that the video of him being dragged off occurred first, and then he got back on the plane. That's just an account in the media - I've seen no sworn statements, police reports or direct interviews with a witness, so we are all speculating based on the video that has been publicly aired.

Nothing that she said changes my opinion that United is at fault and United screwed the pooch. Regardless of what the guy did, this should never have escalated to this level. Competent management would have ensured that this be resolved without the use of force.

Her claims raise questions about what happened that resulted in this guy being dragged off. If they turn out to be erroneous, wrong, etc., fine.

But as we see so often in crime stories, the first media story isn't necessarily the whole story, even on video. Maybe it didn't happen the way we think. Let's see. Let the facts form our opinions.