quote:

Originally posted by ubelongoutside:

quote:

I know, United sucks. Fuck them and their employees. It is in the contract you sign. Not because an airline wants to fuck you, it is in there because in an operation as complex as 5000 flight a day airlines shit comes up and they need the ability to come up with work arounds. Weather, maintenance, crew issues, airport issues, airspace, the Prez needs a haircut, and yes even overbooking. They put that in there because without the legal right to put you on the next available flight (with generous compensation btw) everyone would be sitting there staring at each other wondering why aren't we going anywhere.

I know I will soon regret posting again in this thread but there is a lot of incorrect or just plane bad information out there in the MSM and in this thread.

Do tell about this "generous compensation" Whenever I fly and they ask for volunteers I start at $800. Below that it's not worth the hassle. Also most times I've taken the bump and been told by the gate agent "oh we'll get you on the next flight" that's generally been a lie, and I end up on the last flight of the day in a middle seat between grandma farts a lot, and sweaty alcoholic. So "generous" is a relative term and the cap of $1350 is not in my book generous enough.

pedropcola, add me to the list of people wanting to hear more about this "generous" compensation.

What percentage of business travelers on a flight are prohibited by company policy from taking money for a later flight? What percentage of business travelers have an hourly billing rate where $800 or even $1350 for being forced to fly the next day is ludicrous.

quote:

Actually it is you and pretty much everyone else on this forum who miss the point. So here it is:

Unless you are willing to pay a lot more for your tickets you are not going to get anything better than what the industry currently provides.

Do you or anybody else on this thread think the airlines are not competitive? Do you think that if someone could offer a higher level of service at the same price that they wouldn't already be doing it?

Singapore Air , Emirates , etc do exactly this !

There absolutely is a market for treating passengers better- and these Airlines thrive doing it.

The point is UNITED fucked up big time.

They are now offering refunds to ALL passengers on the flight. As others have said - up the offering until someone takes it - CASH , not stupid vouchers.

I'll take a refund, too.

quote:

Originally posted by Fly-Sig:

Actually it is you and pretty much everyone else on this forum who miss the point. So here it is:

Unless you are willing to pay a lot more for your tickets you are not going to get anything better than what the industry currently provides.

Do you or anybody else on this thread think the airlines are not competitive? Do you think that if someone could offer a higher level of service at the same price that they wouldn't already be doing it?

We are not idiots. Yes, we KNOW it's a competitive business. We know this is the entire reason we've seen our comforts decline (smaller less comfortable seats, being crammed in like cattle, having to pay for snacks or even a carry-on bag). We KNOW how basic economics work.

Don't you think, that maybe, saying that we all 'miss the point' may come across as condescending and a wee bit arrogant?

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Why is it an airline overbooks? Because all of the competition does it. If an airline does not overbook, their product becomes economically unviable.

For crying out loud, this IS NOT about 'overbooking.' This is about United FORCING paying customers off the plane to accommodate their own staff. If you can't see this, it's not surprising that you don't understand why we are all PO'd about this story.

As a pilot, you have your perspective and priorities. I imagine you want your flight to go as smoothly as possible. No worries. I don't fault anybody for that.

However, all the 'industry people' here seem to miss OUR point - we are fed up with crappy service and this is our 'Rodney King moment.'

Pilots on this forum would say stuff like "my plane/my rules," and say the guy deserved to get removed by force. We, the PAYING CUSTOMERS see this as yet one more level of indignity. Instead of working with the customers to come up with a reasonable agreement acceptable to both parties (customer and airline), the airline decided to say "Screw You Customer" and invoked their 'rights' to bloody an old man up because he defied their decisions.


As many have stated, just because you CAN do something (order any passenger removed for any reason) doesn't mean you SHOULD. UAL learned this less the hard way.


I said early on in this thread that I didn't agree with his actions, but I'm sort of glad he acted the way he did, or this whole issue would not have surfaced. The main point to myself (and I assume others here, though I won't speak for everybody) is that I am outraged (and I don't use that term often) over how this paying customer was treated by the airline. The airline basically showed that it cared more for their own people than their customers. They didn't give a crap about this doctor's business, nor about HIS patients. They didn't care about inconveniencing others. Now, the entire world knows it. NO business can act like that very long and remain profitable; be it an airline or a hot dog stand. And based on the way the internet is exploding over this (just Google "United Airlines Memes"), this incident struck a chord with a great many of us. We are sick of being mistreated, and things have to change.

I don't CARE what's in the 'fine print.'

I don't CARE if "any other airline would have done the same.

What matters is the video of that poor man being beaten bloody simply because the airline took the worst possible course of action to fix the airline's problem.

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don't know which sequence is correct, but it is not relevant.

Not only relevant, but essential for her report to be "accurate".

She made the point that Dao moved back into the secured area after being escorted out.

He was escorted out by being knocked out and dragged.

He was asked several times to leave. I saw video of that. He refused.

"The passenger chose the outcome of the police being called"

really ?

United Continental Holdings Inc Chief Executive Officer Oscar Munoz :

United Airlines will no longer use law enforcement officers to remove overbooked passengers from aircraft in the wake of a video that showed a Chicago passenger dragged from one of its flights on Sunday.

"We're not going to put a law enforcement official... to remove a booked, paid, seated passenger," United Continental Holdings Inc Chief Executive Officer Oscar Munoz told ABC News on Wednesday morning. "We can't do that."

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Originally posted by SkyOtter:
United lost about a <sagan>billion</sagan> in value, but has gained most back

Most likely some CS/Math PhD's software or some 16 year old hedge fund manager trying to game short sellers. "Historic reasoning" does not work in "modern markets". While I would not place any bets on UAL, it would not be surprising to see UAL break out to new highs on news of their despicable behavior.

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Originally posted by darthfuster:...Pyrrhic victory.

It seems the United staff, security personnel, et al were properly following all rules, laws, procedures, etc., and the passenger was a jerk.

I wonder, how many (hundreds of?) billions of passenger miles have been flown by US carriers in the past decade, even under challenging circumstances, without such an ugly outcome. I wonder how many $millions this will cost United in legal fees and possible settlement. But most important, how many (tens of?) millions will this cost United in lost ticket sales in the coming couple of years.

I think if fly-sig and entropy just explain it a little bit more for us, then we'll be able to understand - we'll be able to watch the videos and cheer the beating of the Asian doctor. "He had it coming for not complying with the cops! He knows he doesn't have any rights - it's spelled out in his contract! Beat his ass some more - how dare he think he deserves to fly when the COMPANY has crew members to move!"

Maybe someday, fly-sig's wife or entropy's mother will need to be beaten for not knowing what is written in the contract and not complying as they should. The things is, once it is explained to them, they'll be alright with it - not like us close-minded ignorant folks who recoil in horror as we watch people get man-handled.

Hey - it's just business.

Let's leave mothers out of this, please.

Cheap tickets have nothing to do with this. I guess we're just going to keep going around in circles. Talk about not listening.

The court of public opinion is swift in its judgement.

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Originally posted by bigeinkcmo:

The bottom line is that UA could have completely avoided all of this. It's like Wells Fargo and all the fake accounts. Some things should just never happen at a professional organization.

And what do WFC and UAL have in common? "The Oracle of Omaha"

To be unnecessarily fair to United, he bought them all. Buffet is very adept at exploiting humans and Federal laws.

quote:

Originally posted by Rightwire:
The court of public opinion is swift in its judgement.

Its foot doth cram up thine alimentary canal with vigor.

Point of order. This wasn't "overbooking." The passengers had boarded the plane and were seated. The hatch was then closed. At this point 4 United employees arrive and need to be put on the plane.
Reading the FAA regulation, 250 something, says all the overbooking actions are done before boarding. That's to offfer of money etc. disruptive passengers are another section.
Saw a video to night that show the time before the police take action. He is on the phone. (Earlier reports had him calling his lawyer.) about the only movement is his holding his hand up in a "give me a minute" gesture.
Put yourself in his seat. You are two hours from home. Do you want to sleep in your bed or in a chewy hotel? Do you want to be home tonight or midafternoon tomorrow? How do you feel about being singled out?
United isn't going to pay full rate to put you on Delta or any airline flying to Louisville tonight. The first United flight leaves at 11 AM the next morning.
What really happened was United put its employees and money ahead of the passengers.

let's step back for a moment.

United found themselves in a bad situation. Had to get the 4 crew members on the flight. Flight was already boarded and full.

A suggestion for the future if this type of problem occurs:

Just keep offering more $

Why did they stop at 800?

I am not a lawyer or an airline pro, but I looked at the reimbursement regulation:

https://www.transportation.gov/airconsumer/fly-rights

It appears that the $1350 max is for the most the airline is required to provide. Don't see any reason why the airline cannot themselves choose to pay more compensation on a case by case basis.

The on site airline agents should have authority to go to some higher compensation. How high ? The airlines need to think that through. At this instant in time, United would probably wish they had something much higher than $1350.

quote:

Originally posted by Fly-Sig:
The only reason we have a video of someone being dragged off the airplane is because he escalated the situation. He is not the first to be denied boarding, but he is the one who chose to be non-compliant even with police officers.

Its simply remarkable to read this.

I'm not going to weigh in here on the merits or lack thereof among any of the parties involved in this "news of the day" incident.

What I am frankly is glad that I haven't had to fly in well over two decades. Been retired for ten and prior to that managed to drive instead even if the trip was a couple days. I took vacation leave. Why? Industry service and passenger room was going to shit before 9-11 and after toss in the airport TSA idiots and I had all the justification for avoidance. And regardless of the merits, missing facts, whatever ad nauseum posited in this thread and elsewhere, this "incident" only serves to confirm for me that the downward spiral has continued and that my choice of avoidance continues to be well advised.

Tipping point.


Terrible wars have come-about from things such as this and even less.

I used to wonder why.

Now I think I begin to understand.

Oy...


Truly, Pogo was a prophet.

quote:

Originally posted by Fly-Sig:

But the passenger was a huge part of the equation, and he chose to escalate to the point of requiring law enforcement being called. His actions dictated the outcome. When you become belligerent and non-compliant on an airplane, you're going to be removed. He could have chosen to do what others do when denied boarding, which is to comply.

The only reason we have a video of someone being dragged off the airplane is because he escalated the situation. He is not the first to be denied boarding, but he is the one who chose to be non-compliant even with police officers.

Yes, he CHOSE to become non-compliant. He wasn't "belligerent" from what I've seen, though. It's his reaction to being beaten that evokes so much sympathy from me. He kept muttering "I want to go home" as he ran to the back of the plane in fear; not screaming "F**** you and your ***** **** ******* *******!!!!!!."

And I understand the rules about how a flight crew CAN remove anybody they want. In most cases, I don't have a problem with this (drunk, stoned, or otherwise legitimately crazy passengers who become belligerent or a threat to the safety of others). However, 'his actions' did not FORCE the aircrew to have him forcefully removed. The airline staff CHOSE this course of action. THIS choice is why UAL is getting crucified in the court of public opinion.

They could have chosen another passenger. They could have upped the incentive. They could have done a lot of stuff BEFORE they drug the guy from his seat bloody and terrified.

It's not about cheap tickets - it's about the jack-boot thug approach the airline CHOSE to take with one of their customers.