quote:

Originally posted by Voshterkoff:
Too many similarities to the Chinese revolution for comfort.

Indeed, the similarities are there, but the main issue is the unwillingness of the Left to obey the provisions of the Constitution, which is the very foundation of this nation.

In the lead-up to the American Civil War, the election of Lincoln was the final straw for the South.

If Donald Trump should win in 2024, the Left will create havoc the likes of which we have not seen. If Trump is denied his opportunity to participate in the election, I fear a violent upheaval awaits the United States.

Taking this and all else into account, I see history repeating itself, though, of course, this nation is a far different place than it was 165 years ago.

I've been saying that we've got a little more than a year remaining as the nation we know. If the left "wins" in '24, half the country will explode. If Trump wins, the other half will explode.

I don't see a way around it. Everyone best be as ready for it as you can be. Hell is coming to breakfast.

quote:

If Donald Trump should win in 2024, the Left will create havoc the likes of which we have not seen. If Trump is denied his opportunity to participate in the election, I fear a violent upheaval awaits the United States.

Yes.
The third, and most dangerous possibility is if Trump is NOT denied his opportunity to participate in the election, but has it stolen from him once again. That would really be a spark in a powder keg.

quote:

Originally posted by chellim1:
The third, and most dangerous possibility is if Trump is NOT denied his opportunity to participate in the election, but has it stolen from him once again. That would really be a spark in a powder keg.

The mechanisms to do just that are still in place...after three years.

But, I would argue another more dangerous possibility. One that has befell a couple other presidents.

The Presidential Election of 1860

Lincoln's victory and imminent inauguration as president was the immediate cause for declarations of secession by seven Southern states (South Carolina, Mississippi, Florida, Alabama, Georgia, Louisiana, and Texas) from 20 December 1860 to 1 February 1861. They then formed the Confederate States of America. On 9 February 1861, Jefferson Davis was elected president of the Confederacy.

Several other states also considered declaring secession at the time:

Missouri convened a secession convention, which voted against secession and adjourned permanently.

Arkansas convened a secession convention, which voted against secession and adjourned temporarily.

Virginia convened a secession convention, which voted against secession but remained in session.

Tennessee held a referendum on having a secession convention, which failed.

North Carolina held a referendum on having a secession convention, which failed.

All of the secessionist activity was motivated by fear for the institution of slavery in the South. If the President (and, by extension, the appointed federal officials in the South, such as district attorneys, marshals, postmasters, and judges) opposed slavery, it might collapse. There were fears that abolitionist agents would infiltrate the South and foment slave insurrections. (The noted secessionist William Lowndes Yancey, speaking at New York's Cooper Institute in October 1860, asserted that with abolitionists in power, "Emissaries will percolate between master [and] slave as water between the crevices of rocks underground. They will be found everywhere, with strychnine to put in our wells.") Less radical Southerners thought that with Northern antislavery dominance of the federal government, slavery would eventually be abolished, regardless of present constitutional limits.

Bertram Wyatt-Brown argues that secessionists desired independence as necessary for their honor. They could no longer tolerate Northern state attitudes that regarded slave ownership as a great sin and Northern politicians who insisted on stopping the spread of slavery.

Another bloc of Southerners resented Northern criticism of slavery and restrictions on slavery but opposed secession as dangerous and unnecessary. However, the "conditional Unionists" also hoped that when faced with secession, Northerners would stifle anti-slavery rhetoric and accept pro-slavery rules for the territories. It was that group that prevented immediate secession in Virginia, North Carolina, Tennessee, and Arkansas when Lincoln took office on 4 March 1861. He took no action against the secessionists in the seven "Confederate" states but also declared that secession had no legal validity and refused to surrender federal property in those states. (He also reiterated his opposition to slavery anywhere in the territories.) Preparing to form an army, on 6 March 1861 Davis called for 100,000 volunteers to serve for twelve months. The political standoff continued until mid-April, when Davis ordered Confederate troops to bombard and capture Fort Sumter.

Lincoln then called for troops to put down rebellion, which wiped out the possibility that the crisis could be resolved by compromise. Nearly all "conditional Unionists" joined the secessionists. The Virginia convention and the reconvened Arkansas convention both declared secession, as did the legislatures of Tennessee and North Carolina; all four states joined the Confederacy.

quote:

the main issue is the unwillingness of the Left to obey the provisions of the Constitution, which is the very foundation of this nation.

In the lead-up to the American Civil War, the election of Lincoln was the final straw for the South.

The election of Trump or the non-election of Trump could serve as a spark, but how will we know who is on what side?
There's no geography to the Left's treason to the Constitution.

quote:

Originally posted by Gustofer:
I've been saying that we've got a little more than a year remaining as the nation we know. If the left "wins" in '24, half the country will explode. If Trump wins, the other half will explode.

I don't see a way around it. Everyone best be as ready for it as you can be. Hell is coming to breakfast.

I would prefer that Trump win. Let the left explode.

Of course we prefer Donald Trump wins.

The problem is the Left cannot allow this, so they are throwing everything they can at it- nonstop indictments and anything else they can do. States attempting to leave Donald Trump off the ballot- I cannot say I understand the laws surrounding this but I foresee this being a big problem if there is a Trump conviction before the election. In that case, SCOTUS will surely be involved.

What it comes down to is that no one- that is NO ONE- can say what is going to happen, but whatever happens, it's going to be a mess.

After Lincoln'd election it was held generally that a compromise of some sort would be worked out. Brother against brother, cousin against cousin? Can't happen they say or it will be short and done.

The number of soldiers (on both sides) who died between 1861 and 1865, generally estimated at 620,000, is approximately equal to the total of American fatalities in the Revolutionary War, the War of 1812, the Mexican War, the Spanish American War, World War I, World War II, and the Korean War, combined. (HT: Wiki)

A likely equal or greater number of cripples, amputees, disabled mentally and you have quite the social change and we aren't over it yet. People that likely couldn't tell you who fought who or where it was fought want CHANGE. The only difference this time and last time is that this time there won't be any real violence and people will recognize the futility of...whatever.
It's the old 'it can't happen here routine'. I for one am not convinced.

quote:

Originally posted by parabellum:
Lincoln's victory and imminent inauguration as president was the immediate cause for declarations of secession by seven Southern states (South Carolina, Mississippi, Florida, Alabama, Georgia, Louisiana, and Texas) from 20 December 1860 to 1 February 1861. They then formed the Confederate States of America. On 9 February 1861, Jefferson Davis was elected president of the Confederacy.

Several other states also considered declaring secession at the time:

Missouri convened a secession convention, which voted against secession and adjourned permanently.

Arkansas convened a secession convention, which voted against secession and adjourned temporarily.

Virginia convened a secession convention, which voted against secession but remained in session.

Tennessee held a referendum on having a secession convention, which failed.

North Carolina held a referendum on having a secession convention, which failed.
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.
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Should it happen that President Trump is DENIED running for President or it is obvious and proven the election is tainted/stolen, could secession talks begin by those states in support of President Trump to preserve the United States Constitution?? That might be the spark EVERYONE is waiting on.

That said, WAR IS HELL (and the LAST thing this country needs), but I can't help believe that Patriots of this country and those in support of the U.S. Constitution would have any conflict wrapped up inside a week. That's my glass is half full side...

There will be no secession, and the nature of the war would be guerilla fighting, and it would be a society-destroying mess that would go on for years and years.

As Lincoln said in his "House Divided" speech, the nation cannot remain two things. It must become all one thing, or become all the other. Compared to what would happen this time around, the conflict which lasted 1861 to 1865 would seem like a tidy affair. We're talking about something which could last an entire generation.

quote:

Should it happen that President Trump is DENIED running for President or it is obvious and proven the election is tainted/stolen, could secession talks begin by those states in support of President Trump to preserve the United States Constitution??

Para is right: There will be no secession, and the nature of the war would be guerilla fighting, and it would be a society-destroying mess that would go on for years and years.

It will be difficult to communicate. It will be difficult to even identify the enemy.

President Trump is attempting to salvage the Constitution and the country, as founded. The Marxist leftists don't care if it is destroyed.

Oh, good Lord. Succession? Civil war? From a majority of the population that doesn't pay attention to politics for more than two weeks every four years? From a population that is overly obese and addicted to their cell phones? The left can't even vote in their best interest to keep crime and corruption at bay. The right keeps voting for the same old shit promised by politicians for 50 years, and never delivered. The people don't have the stones for either secession or civil war. Divide and conquer politics of both sides are playing you like a Stradivarius. Ideology baby. It's what's for dinner.

quote:

From a majority of the population that doesn't pay attention to politics for more than two weeks every four years? From a population that is overly obese and addicted to their cell phones?

It's a fair point. Most people are like sheep, not paying much attention, happy to be led to the slaughter, just not willing to go first.

But the majority of colonists didn't exactly want to fight either. It is impossible to know the exact number of American colonists who favored or opposed independence. For years it was widely believed that one third favored the Revolution, one third opposed it, and one third were undecided. This stems from an estimate made by John Adams in his personal writings in 1815.

As for actually fighting it? With the 1780 population estimated at 2,780,369, that gives us 2.96 percent of the country serving in George Washington's Army.

quote:

Divide and conquer politics of both sides are playing you like a Stradivarius. Ideology baby. It's what's for dinner.

As a political philosophy major at the University of Dallas, I have studied ideology. At UD it was different than political science. We actually studied the ancients, using original sources. One class was entirely on Plato's Republic. Many read Aristotle in the original Greek.

It is true that most people do not have a well developed concept of their own ideology. But some people do, on both sides. When I assert that Marxism, in it's various forms and permutations, is my enemy it's not because I don't know what I'm up against. Marxism is evil as it is ultimately a denial of God.

^^^The 'high drag, low speed' segment of the population...

quote:

Originally posted by goose5:
Oh, good Lord. Succession?

If you're going to ridicule the discussion, at least spell the word correctly.

Do me a favor and don't behave as if you can say to a certainty that we are not heading towards a major upheaval in this nation. It's as if you think that the breakdown which is occurring in our society will simply stop at some point and get no worse and that's outright foolishness.

I've read some articles to this effect, but the country needs a national divorce. The Left will never accept rule of law and they can't implement their will via the legislative process and free elections. They have to do it all by lawfare and weaponization of gov't. agencies.
There's no changing those people's minds. Best to just let them have their own territories and suffer their fates, while people who believe in the Const. and the non-crazy stuff need to keep what's left of the US and reinforce rule of law and free and fair elections. I don't know how we get there though.

quote:

the country needs a national divorce. The Left will never accept rule of law and they can't implement their will via the legislative process and free elections. They have to do it all by lawfare and weaponization of gov't. agencies.

I would be in favor of this idea. Geographically, they could have California, and the rest of the West Coast. Also, the Northeast and give Chicago to Canada or something. But... it won't happen.
Do you really think the Left would allow that to happen? Hell no! The last thing the Left wants is to have to be independent and self-sufficient. The failure of their ideas would immediately rear its' ugly head. They want (need) us, the productive middle-class, as tax slaves.

This has been posted in the Trump thread, but for those who haven't seen it:

Newt Gingrich: We are drifting towards the greatest Constitutional crisis since the 1850s

Former Speaker of the House Newt Gingrich responds to the grand jury returning 10 sealed indictments in the Trump Georgia case.

https://www.foxnews.com/video/6333547137112

Back to Donald Trump and Ron DeSantis:

President Trump Confirms He Will Not Be Attending the First Loser Fox News GOPe Debate

President Trump has confirmed he will not be participating in the Fox News debate scheduled for August 23rd. The insufferable Martha MacCallum and Bret Baier will be moderating the first loser Republican primary discussion where leaked information from Ron DeSantis debate prep has been revealed.



Meanwhile the Never Back Down SuperPAC supporting Ron DeSantis has shared their goals and objectives with the New York Times.

Hundreds of pages of blunt advice, memos and internal polling were posted online by the main super PAC backing the Florida governor, offering an extraordinary glimpse into his operation’s thinking.

Ron DeSantis needs “to take a sledgehammer” to Vivek Ramaswamy, the political newcomer who is rising in the polls. He should “defend Donald Trump” when Chris Christie inevitably attacks the former president. And he needs to “attack Joe Biden and the media” no less than three to five times.

[…] “There are four basic must-dos,” one of the memos urges Mr. DeSantis, whom the document refers to as “GRD.”

[…] “1. Attack Joe Biden and the media 3-5 times. 2. State GRD’s positive vision 2-3 times. 3. Hammer Vivek Ramaswamy in a response. 4. Defend Donald Trump in absentia in response to a Chris Christie attack.”

The documents were posted this week on the website of Axiom Strategies, the company owned by Jeff Roe, the chief strategist of Mr. DeSantis’s super PAC, Never Back Down.

The New York Times was alerted to the existence of the documents by a person not connected to the DeSantis campaign or the super PAC. After The Times reached out to Never Back Down for comment on Thursday, the group removed from the website a key memo summarizing the suggested strategy for the debate.

https://theconservativetreehou...-debate/#more-250050

quote:

Originally posted by chellim1:

quote:

the country needs a national divorce. The Left will never accept rule of law and they can't implement their will via the legislative process and free elections. They have to do it all by lawfare and weaponization of gov't. agencies.

I would be in favor of this idea. Geographically, they could have California, and the rest of the West Coast. Also, the Northeast and give Chicago to Canada or something. But... it won't happen.

When people talk about National Divorce, or whatever their vision of dividing the country is, they never mention the following. Once we are divided, you can expect foreign influence in a big way. I am not sure what it would look like, but it would not surprise me if Beijing Biden didn't ask the CCP for assistance in quelling unrest in our western states. Or, maybe the CCP invades Taiwan and forgets to stop until it hits Nebraska. Whatever shape it takes, don't fool yourself to think the fight will be against soy boy's. Remember, France jumped at the opportunity to help us in our revolution against their enemy.