Regarding 922(r)...It's my understanding that an SBR registered during the Amnesty period for Rule 08F is excluded from the requirement to comply with 922(r). The following is from the FAQs for Final Rule 2021-08F published by the ATF:

"I POSSESS A PISTOL, WHICH WAS IMPORTED AND THEN SUBSEQUENTLY EQUIPPED WITH A STABILIZING BRACE. DOES 18 U.S.C. § 922(R) APPLY TO MY FIREARM?

No. Section 922(r), in relevant part, makes it unlawful to assemble from imported parts a semiautomatic rifle that is otherwise not importable. The implementing regulations of the GCAat 27 CFR 478.39 provides that a person may not assemble a semiautomatic rifle using more than 10 of the imported parts listed in the relevant paragraphs of the regulation. As discussed in section IV.B.8.e of the final rule, the criminal violation under section 922(r) is for the “assembly” of the semiautomatic rifle; therefore, no modification of such firearm would cure the 922(r) violation because the “assembly” has already occurred. Accordingly, a person with an imported pistol that was subsequently equipped with a “stabilizing brace” will have the same options as anyone else under the final rule. Should that person choose to register the firearm, no further modification of the firearm with domestic parts is required."

Just something to think about...

Another argument for keeping amnesty registered SBR's I hadn't thought of.

Honestly, I'm not worried about 922r not only because nobody can ever find a case of it being enforced, but even then, I tend to extensively tinker with my firearms, and this is especially true with my Scorpion. I think the only original parts left on mine are the upper and lower receiver, trigger pack housing, and barrel. Besides, I use US-made magazines, and that's four parts out of the required ten right there.

The big benefit to me on my HK's was that amnesty not only solved 922r it also solved engraving on genuine HK product. I could care less about engraving a PTR or a B&T.
And I think the amnesty answer also provides an insight into the 922r issue. I see people sweating 922r all the time thinking that the gun has to remain 922r compliant. Even in this thread (" One thing to keep in mind is that a MP5 that has been properly altered under 922(r) isn't really an HK anymore but a clone/hybrid")
BUT the ATF has clearly said its only relevant when the gun is "assembled" as that is what is in the statue. I can easily make an MP5 (or a B&T or a ...) compliant when assembled as an SBR and then go back to using the parts I want. Its not said but I would maintain the ability to put it back into a compliant gun, but that's trivial with trigger packs, handguards, magazines and the like.
Note that the aftermarket has made compliance on an SP5 totally trivial and with parts you probably want anyway.

922r is such a shitshow. For those not familiar, the following applies to the imported MP5-type PCCs. Out of the following parts, you must replace 6 with US-made versions:

1. Receiver
2. Barrel
3. Trunion
4. Bolt
5. Bolt Carrier
6. Cocking Handle
7. Trigger Box
8. Trigger
9. Hammer
10. Sear
11. Buttstock
12. Pistol Grip module
13. Forearm / Handguard
14. Magazine Housing
15. Magazine Follower
16. Magazine Floorplate

The magazine parts get into a weird gray area. More detail is available in a thread on the HK Pro Forum. Also, not all parts listed have markings that indicate that they are foreign-made. What's to stop anyone from simply stamping "US" into these parts? I've not heard of anyone getting dinged on a 922r violation, either.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: flesheatingvirus,

It's been a while since I shot an MP5. It was cool, but I didn't think it was the coolest thing since sliced bread. Shot some other 9mm PCCs here there, but settled on a Wilson Combat Glock pattern AR9G SBR. I won't look back.



There are folks who state a blowback PCC has unpleasant recoil. I suspect those folks haven't shot a Wilson. My WC is light in weight, cycles smoothly, and has minimal recoil. Follow up shots are quick, and easy to control. Back in early 2022, when the Sigforum "Postal Match" had a greater variety of match formats, I repeatedly demonstrated how the WC worked well at various targets, various distances, and on the clock.

There are folks who state their PCCs are quite accurate. So....how about some metrics? And I don't mean on a silhouette sized target at 5 yards. <<crickets>>

So here we go....10 shots from a Wilson Combat 8" barrel AR9G at 200 yards. Prone, bipod, 1-4x Vortex scope, 115 grain S&B FMJ 9mm. February 2021. 12" plate

Initially shot the SBR at 50 yards, then 100 yards. Things were going well, so late in the day I backed off to 200 yards, with 12 rounds left. Never shot a 9mm at 200 yards, so I had no idea on elevation dope. Had a blustery cold wind from my 9 o'clock.

Dialed a SWAG 8 MOA, one shot. I believe the shot landed low & right in the grass & snow, but couldn't be certain.

Dialed 11 MOA, one shot. Saw the impact, low and right. Need more elevation, need more wind hold. Now I'm down to 10 rounds.

Dialed 14 MOA, held a little left of the 9 o'clock point on the plate. Impact, but a little high and right of center. So be it, no time to reduce elevation by 1/2 or 1 MOA, then repaint the steel. I'm going with the 10 rounds I have left. I admit that judging wind holds with 9mm is interesting.

2.5 inches vertical dispersion, 3.75 inches horizontal dispersion -- I like this SBR. Note that this is FMJ ammo with 2.5" vertical dispersion at 200 yards. There are AR15s that can't hang with that at 100 yards with FMJ ammo.




My Wilson PCC is an absolute hoot to train with in our ranch's erosion gullies, where I set multiple targets, and just work my way from one end to the other.

That's undeniably impressive accuracy, but I'm not looking for that from a 9mm SBR. It's also $2k for an upper, and while I know Wilson makes great stuff, that's the kind of price range where some integrals start to become an option, and really, that's more what I'm looking for anyways. I want something that's easy shooting, quiet, and fun. Plinking distance accuracy is fine. Call it a couple inches at a hundred yards and I'll be more than happy.

If I was going to seriously consider an AR9 type in that price range, it would be Daniel Defense's integral PCC, if they ever get around to releasing it. I shot one a few months ago, and really, really liked it. It was very quiet, and very smooth shooting.

Coming back to the Stribog, I discovered this:
https://a3tactical.com/stribog-lower-receiver/

At a grand all-in for an SP9A3 with shipping, tax, and transfer, plus $190 for a lower I can use AR grips and drop my binary into, this is pretty tempting. The A3 lower is half the price of the Lingle lower, but that comes down to the whole "aluminum vs. polymer" thing. I'm starting to look closer at the SP9A3 now. It would mean I need to get the barrel on my Scorpion re-threaded in 1/2x28 to get them on the same page. Not the end of the world, I could even put a tri lug adapter on each of them.

quote:

Originally posted by P220 Smudge:
I want something that's easy shooting, quiet, and fun. Plinking distance accuracy is fine. Call it a couple inches at a hundred yards and I'll be more than happy.

Any suppressed subsonic ammo will be quiet.

A couple of inches at 100 yards isn't plinking accuracy. I think you'll find that few PCCs can do that consistently with FMJ ammo. IMO plinking accuracy is more in the ballpark of 2+ inches at 50 yards.

quote:

Originally posted by fritz:
Any suppressed subsonic ammo will be quiet.

Ahh, but they're not all so quiet at the ear. My Scorpion is loud at the ear even with subsonic ammo and a good can. Lots of flash out of the port as well. The integral PCC's I've gotten to shoot have been noticeably quieter, and that with 115gr range ammo.

quote:

Originally posted by fritz:
A couple of inches at 100 yards isn't plinking accuracy. I think you'll find that few PCCs can do that consistently with FMJ ammo. IMO plinking accuracy is more in the ballpark of 2+ inches at 50 yards.

Call it 50 yards, then. I don't see myself shooting one of these at 100, honestly.

quote:

Originally posted by fritz:
It's been a while since I shot an MP5. It was cool, but I didn't think it was the coolest thing since sliced bread. Shot some other 9mm PCCs here there, but settled on a Wilson Combat Glock pattern AR9G SBR. I won't look back.



There are folks who state a blowback PCC has unpleasant recoil. I suspect those folks haven't shot a Wilson. My WC is light in weight, cycles smoothly, and has minimal recoil. Follow up shots are quick, and easy to control. Back in early 2022, when the Sigforum "Postal Match" had a greater variety of match formats, I repeatedly demonstrated how the WC worked well at various targets, various distances, and on the clock.

There are folks who state their PCCs are quite accurate. So....how about some metrics? And I don't mean on a silhouette sized target at 5 yards. <<crickets>>

So here we go....10 shots from a Wilson Combat 8" barrel AR9G at 200 yards. Prone, bipod, 1-4x Vortex scope, 115 grain S&B FMJ 9mm. February 2021. 12" plate

Initially shot the SBR at 50 yards, then 100 yards. Things were going well, so late in the day I backed off to 200 yards, with 12 rounds left. Never shot a 9mm at 200 yards, so I had no idea on elevation dope. Had a blustery cold wind from my 9 o'clock.

Dialed a SWAG 8 MOA, one shot. I believe the shot landed low & right in the grass & snow, but couldn't be certain.

Dialed 11 MOA, one shot. Saw the impact, low and right. Need more elevation, need more wind hold. Now I'm down to 10 rounds.

Dialed 14 MOA, held a little left of the 9 o'clock point on the plate. Impact, but a little high and right of center. So be it, no time to reduce elevation by 1/2 or 1 MOA, then repaint the steel. I'm going with the 10 rounds I have left. I admit that judging wind holds with 9mm is interesting.

2.5 inches vertical dispersion, 3.75 inches horizontal dispersion -- I like this SBR. Note that this is FMJ ammo with 2.5" vertical dispersion at 200 yards. There are AR15s that can't hang with that at 100 yards with FMJ ammo.




My Wilson PCC is an absolute hoot to train with in our ranch's erosion gullies, where I set multiple targets, and just work my way from one end to the other.

Impressive groups with a 9mm. I haven't bagged it out to test, but I don't think my CMMG RDB will group that small. Of course, I haven't tried to find an accuracy load for it. 125 gr precision delta bullets at 1000 FPS is stupidly quiet and fun.


A suppressed SBR 9mm AR is really once of the most fun shooting experiences that you can have.

Throw a small IR laser on the handguard and pair with NV and the fun factor doubles.

quote:

Originally posted by IndianaBoy:
Throw a small IR laser on the handguard and pair with NV and the fun factor doubles.

See, this right here for me is what took it from "it's neat to have" to "I want to do lots of this."

Just got to do a shoot with some friends. The theme was suppressed quasi-subguns. I don't know what all cans they had, but in attendance besides my Scorpion were:

CMMG Banshee with Omega 9K
PSA AK-V with a Wolfman in the full size config.
Mystery AR-9
Stribog SP9A1
B&T APC9 With Rex Silentium MG7K
B&T SPC9 SD
B&T GHM9 SD
Zenith MP95 clone

Some take-aways: Really, even the integral guns weren't what I would call "hearing safe." I think I'm abandoning that goal. The integral guns were very quiet with 115gr ammo, and that's nice, but I'm planning to bring my father's reloading setup home next month. I figure a good place to start learning how is with pistol calibers, and subsonic 9mm is probably affordable enough to reload that I'm not going to worry about it much. Maybe I'm wrong, I don't know.

The PSA wouldn't hardly run, and that was with Magpul mags and both with 115gr and 147gr Aguila. I won't consider one after that dismal performance, and that probably also extends to their AR-V. That's two crossed off the list of potentials.

I didn't get much time with it, but I actually liked the ergonomics and shootability of the Stribog quite a bit. If the A3 is the same gun, but a lot smoother shooting, that may very well be the way I go. I liked it a lot, even compared to the B&T stuff, and for sure I liked it better than the MP5. It was my third time shooting an MP5, and it still just doesn't do anything at all for me.

One guy also brought a custom modern take on a DeLisle that he had Liberty build a custom suppressor for that was grin-inducingly quiet with 115gr 9mm, but that's... a whole other can of worms.


After shooting all those and ending out the trip shooting some 147gr subsonic through my Scorpion... I didn't feel like it lost a whole lot to the others. Stock, they leave a lot to be desired, but mine is so thoroughly worked over at this point that it's probably about as good as they get, and it's really not bad. The most recent thing I did was swap out the recoil spring for a 125% spring, and it tamed it a considerable amount. About the only way it could get better is if I put a K barrel on it so I can shave a little more velocity, nest the can into the handguard a bit, and set it up with Griffin's EZ-Lock so I can easily move the can around between 9mm hosts. Other than that, I would put it up against any of the others on the table today and say you're going to get comparable performance, it would just be down to feature sets ergonomic differences. I had been thinking about putting it on the chopping block, but it's a no-engrave SBR and really, there's no reason to get rid of it.

I've made a decision. I'm gonna try out a Stribog SP9A3 with a Lingle lower, mostly because I stumbled across a used lower for cheaper than the A3 Tactical lower goes new. Hopefully should have the lower in hand soon. The lower will work on either the A1 or the A3, but I don't want to do another straight blowback 9mm "subgun" analogue - it's gonna be a delayed system of some sort and I'm seeing great stuff about the A3, so that's what I'm doing.

I've considered the S, but I have big hands and need enough to hand onto. I also keep seeing that short barrels don't suppress as well, and that's a big factor for me. Now comes the question of tri lug vs. Griffin EZ-Lok and that whole ecosystem. Either way, I need to get my Scorpion barrel re-threaded for 1/2x28 to at least get it on the same page.

Anyways, thanks for all the input. It's not to say I won't eventually give up and go the MP5 route, but at least, not yet.

Hi Smudge !
You didn't mention your impression of the CMMG. I'm curious because I have one and have never shot any of the other guns mentioned.

Btw....was the owner of the Delisle, "gun Jesus " ??

quote:

Originally posted by mike28w:
You didn't mention your impression of the CMMG. I'm curious because I have one and have never shot any of the other guns mentioned.

It was good, and quiet. Cycled nicely. He just has a standard AR lower with Endo mag conversions, so while I get that it's convenient, the whole thing is maybe a little bigger than it needs to be. It felt like shooting an AR, but quieter, if that makes sense. It was nice, it just didn't excite me. Totally a preference thing.

quote:

Originally posted by mike28w:
Btw....was the owner of the Delisle, "gun Jesus " ??

Not Ian McCollum, no. Though I do see he lives in Tucson, so I could conceivably run into him at some point since we're both doing the night vision shooting thing and there's only so many of us into that. Now that I think of it, the guy who owns it probably looks more like the stereotypical Jesus depiction than Ian does.

Can't wait to see pics and get a report on the Stribog.

I like the idea of the roller locked Stribog, what is the back end of the gun? the distributor site shows no pictures of that. How do you attach your brace/stock/whatever?

quote:

Originally posted by flesheatingvirus:
Can't wait to see pics and get a report on the Stribog.

Will do!

quote:

Originally posted by hrcjon:
I like the idea of the roller locked Stribog, what is the back end of the gun? the distributor site shows no pictures of that. How do you attach your brace/stock/whatever?

Just an endplate that slides out when you separate the upper and lower.. Good video showing it here, timestamped to start at the relevant parts.



I'm gonna order it as a pistol and start a Form 1 once I'm sure it's not a dud. There's actually some pretty decent options as far as stocks go, and not too horribly expensive. The factory folder isn't really my flavor, but the factory collapsing wire stock is actually supposed to be pretty decent. HBI makes an adapter for the B&T stock, and then there's the picatinny end plate and all that. Lage and A3, etc.

That's nice how easily the end cap/stocks install. Why would you make BOTH an Al and nylon end plate version of the same stock? The weight difference is probably minimal, but I'm guessing the price difference is not. It doesn't seem like a high-stress part, and the nylon would probably be sufficient. That being said, I'd probably go with the metal version regardless. That's probably why they make both.

I like that it already has some MLOK slots ready to go. I need to get my hands on one of these to check it out in person. A collapsible stock, can, sling, and red dot would make a very nice setup.

What kind of tri-lug adapter were you looking at?

Yeah, I had basically all those same thoughts as far as the stock attachment.

As for tri lugs, I hadn't looked into it too deeply yet. Ecco Machine and Otter Creek both recommend the Kaw Valley Precision mount, and it's priced nicely compared to some of the other options, so if I go that route, I'd probably pick up one of those. There's a number of companies that make 1/2x28 tri lug adapters, and I haven't really looked too closely at those yet. I really do like the idea of setting up my can with EZ-Lok so I can move it quickly and easily between PCC's and pistols, but it isn't a cheap way to go, and the muzzle devices on pistols frankly look ridiculous to me. May very well just go tri lug. If I do that, I'm tempted to get an Otter Creek Lithium and have that be the tri lug can and swap over the Ecco Phoenix for pistols since it's slimmer in diameter. In Lead We Trust makes a 6.3" barrel with tri lugs machined in, but it's another $250, so that can wait. The upside to suppressors is there's a bazillion choices on what and how you want to do it. The downside to suppressors is there's a bazillion choices on what and how you want to do it.

Bud's and a bunch of other sites had it for the same price, but by the time I was set to order, I could only find it that low on Gunprime. Everyone else was sold out. Just ordered it, hopefully their shipping is quick. $898, shipped.

https://gunprime.com/products/...roller-delayed-sp9a3