Nemo Arms had a pretty nifty looking one at SHOT SHOW that takes CZ Scorpion mags. One of the nicest looking guns in that department. Daniel Defense had something along the same lines as did LWRC. The LWRC took Glock mags however.

I have a GHM9 and Scorpion that are both SBR’d. more aftermarket goodies are out there for the Scorpion, but the B&T doesn’t need much tweaking. Both are a lot of fun and reliable. Below is the GHM.

^^^Nice!

Free/Amnesty 'No Engraving Required' Tax Stamp for your Swiss Hotness? What stock is that?

quote:

Originally posted by nhracecraft:
^^^Nice!

Free/Amnesty 'No Engraving Required' Tax Stamp for your Swiss Hotness? What stock is that?

Thanks! I believe Strike Ind. makes the stock and riser.

Nice GHM9!

Jon, I hear you about the “for the money” part. I’m going to mull this over plenty before I make a decision. I watched a comparison video of the APC9 and GHM9 and the big difference seems to boil down to that protrusion on the back of the receiver and stock choices - the quality level on the GHM9 is up there with the APC9. Again with “for the money,” would you recommend a GHM9? Seems like a lot of the turnkey 9mm SBR subgun-esque options hit around that $1,500-2k price range. In that category, is the GHM9 the winner?

Kaschi, thanks for the heads up on the Nemo Arms Mongoose, that’s a neat concept. On paper, it has exactly what I’m asking for with AR trigger and grip compatibility, Scorpion mags, and less stuff cycling around. Saw a video saying spring of this year and $1,950 MSRP. I’ve never heard of Nemo Arms before, and proprietary stuff with parts that are hard to source makes me wary. I’ve been trying to get away from stuff like that in general, but if these review well, I might be really interested.

In the meantime, I’ll get my tri lug stuff and shoot the Scorpion suppressed and see what I think. Trying to get in on this quick approval stuff. My can is ordered, it’s just a Form 3 between me and spinning the wheel on an individual submission.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: P220 Smudge,

HK MP5 is my personal favorite SMG. The SP5 is the best option for a semi PCC MP5 variant. The only real detractor to the MP5 in my opinion is the lack of a last round bolt hold open. This doesn’t bother me, because the SMG/PCC are just fun guns in my collection. If I needed a long gun for defensive purposes, I’m grabbing 5.56.

Were I not going mp5, I’d go with the fixed ejector CMMG radially delayed blowback Dissent:


https://cmmg.com/upper-group-dissent-9mm-6-5

I went with the Stribog SP9A3. It is roller delayed blowback, takes Scorpion magazines with the Lingle Lower, and works well suppressed and unsurpressed.

I wanted the Scorpion magazines, since they are cheap and reliable, but wanted something slightly different than a Scorpion.

Good luck on your selection though. There are so many excellent 9mm PCCs available now.

MP5s are sweethearts to shoot. I own several 9mm SBR's and they are my favorite.

Got the notification my suppressor has shipped to my FFL, so I started looking into the mounts and all that and made a horrible discovery.

So, the Scorpion has a Gen 1 and Gen 2. The only differences are that the Gen 1 has a sling loop that got deleted with the Gen 2, and the thread pitch on the barrel. The original is 18x1, and a second threading of 1/2x28 hidden under the flash hider. They made this change in 2016. My Scorpion is dated 2016, but is a Gen 1 with the sling loop and 18x1 metric threads. Ok, well, people make tri lug adapters for these and they're about $60-70... and look like a pile of ass. I can buy an HBI K conversion kit with an integral tri lug and be done with it, but then I'm losing rail estate on a gun I want to stick an IR light/laser combo on. I can buy an 8" barrel with an integral tri lug, but it's $275, have no provision for mounting a factory style handguard and so I would need to spend another couple hundred for a floating handguard, so I'd be spending a lot more overall to keep the additional three inches of barrel length.

I was pretty sure I had a Gen 2, but really, by not confirming, I'm kind of backed into a corner. I'd almost rather just have the GMH9 at this rate. It wasn't a big deal until I wanted to suppress it, and now that OEM barrel with the tri lug looks like a cherry on top.

quote:

Originally posted by P220 Smudge:
Got the notification my suppressor has shipped to my FFL, so I started looking into the mounts and all that and made a horrible discovery.

So, the Scorpion has a Gen 1 and Gen 2. The only differences are that the Gen 1 has a sling loop that got deleted with the Gen 2, and the thread pitch on the barrel. The original is 18x1, and a second threading of 1/2x28 hidden under the flash hider. They made this change in 2016. My Scorpion is dated 2016, but is a Gen 1 with the sling loop and 18x1 metric threads. Ok, well, people make tri lug adapters for these and they're about $60-70... and look like a pile of ass. I can buy an HBI K conversion kit with an integral tri lug and be done with it, but then I'm losing rail estate on a gun I want to stick an IR light/laser combo on. I can buy an 8" barrel with an integral tri lug, but it's $275, have no provision for mounting a factory style handguard and so I would need to spend another couple hundred for a floating handguard, so I'd be spending a lot more overall to keep the additional three inches of barrel length.

I was pretty sure I had a Gen 2, but really, by not confirming, I'm kind of backed into a corner. I'd almost rather just have the GMH9 at this rate. It wasn't a big deal until I wanted to suppress it, and now that OEM barrel with the tri lug looks like a cherry on top.

I'd just get a dedicated B&T Scorpion suppressor and call it day. Then at least you aren't making major changes to the gun. Capitol Armory has them instock for around 600. Use the other 9mm suppressor for everything else. Pain in the ass I know. I have a gen 1 scorpion so I've been in that camp

https://www.capitolarmory.com/...-suppressor-9mm.html

Yeah, that's definitely still an option.

HK Parts has this thing.

https://hkparts.net/hkp-hk-par...n-evo-3-lug-adapter/

It should work, it's just ugly as sin, and I bent the damn retaining clip getting the muzzle... whatever it is off when I changed out the handguard. I bent it back, but it kind of barely retains the flash hider. I just wonder about that tri lug walking off.

Another option is since I bought an Ecco Machine can, just email Ecco and ask if they can whip up an 18x1 direct thread mount. It's an Alpha pattern can, and they have a whole variety of other thread pitches available, they just don't have that one listed. Thanks again, CZ, for coming out with something apparently nobody uses lol.

That Nemo Mongoose keeps looking more and more appealing....

*Edit - Silencerco makes a direct thread 18x1 to Alhpa. That would at least get me up and running while I think over my options. I really didn't want to go direct thread and have to be checking the can every dozen rounds or so, that's why I wanted to go with a three lug. Hmmmm.



Yeah, not gonna do these tri lug mounts lol. Direct thread it is.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: P220 Smudge,

I would avoid B&T simply because of the price, since youre literally just buying a direct blowback. Yeah, theres the "but muh hydraulic buffer" crowd, but its still a direct blowback PCC for 3x the price of a scorpion or stribog or whatever.

My MPX is my favorite gun I have ever owned, and is insanely reliable. I use a 4.5" barrel with my Omega9k shrouded underneath an 8" handguard.

You can also pick up an MKE MP5 clone. Dont get sucked into the whole Zenith vs Century thing...the guns are literally identical, all made by MKE. Zenith used to be the importer, Century is now. There's no difference whatsoever in build quality.

Also avoid the PTR MP5s. I have had two and both were riddled with issues that took months to fix. Out of spec trilugs, stocks/braces that wouldnt fit without heavy modification, floppy safety paddles, etc.

FWIW that B&T can uses the same retention as the flashider, so even though its direct thread its not going to back off since its clipped in.

quote:

Originally posted by dwd1985:
Yeah, theres the "but muh hydraulic buffer" crowd, but its still a direct blowback PCC for 3x the price of a scorpion or stribog or whatever.

Yeah, really, these should all be at or under a grand. I have seen references to some of the pre-COVID prices being a whole lot less ridiculous, but like a lot of things, the materials sourcing, trucking and shipping, and the whole rest of the world are open for business, but the prices haven't come back down. It definitely gives pause.

Yeah, if I were going to consider an MP5 clone, brand really wouldn't matter to me.

quote:

Originally posted by Andyb:
FWIW that B&T can uses the same retention as the flashider, so even though its direct thread its not going to back off since its clipped in.

Well, I won't rule it out, but at this point, it's still another $800 in commitment to the platform. In the meantime, I ordered that Silencerco 18x1 direct thread mount so I'll at least have something I can shoot it on if I get a quick approval (and I'm going to be doing all the things the guys who have been getting quick approvals did). It does mean I'll need to remove that index/retention clip, but oh well.

I'll defend muh hydraulic buffer a bit. The B&T APC's are not in the same league as the Scorpions or MPX (the mpx is the only 9mm pcc I've ever sold but that was a Sig issue not necessarily a mpx issue). Like a Rolex next to a Casio. The B&T's are beautifully machined sweet shooting weapons. Tolerances are extremely tight and they work well. I love my Scorpion and for the money you can't beat it, but the APC's are a whole other animal. Folks can rag on direct blowback but it's extremely simple and it works. I think B&T took that simple operating system and refined it. It runs, and it runs very smoothly. I feel like the hangup is for that amount of money people want some complicated or fancy system (MPX) or roller lock or whatever else with the perception of it being better. Putting the APC next to a roller lock its different, but not necessarily better or worse. Shoot one if you ever get the chance. Most of the haters of the B&T don't own one and have never shot one.

quote:

Yeah, not gonna do these tri lug mounts lol. Direct thread it is.

Uh IMO that would be a really poor choice in terms of usability.
I can't imagine what bothers you about the 18mm to trilug adapter. Your stuck with the 18mm side no matter what. And direct thread really, really, really sucks.

Well, I didn't get to do a direct A/B with my Scorpion and that APC9, and I didn't shoot it a whole lot because the guy didn't have a lot of subs to share, but my recollection was that it was a very smooth shooting little gun. And again, it was suppressed and mine hasn't been yet, so it's not a direct 1:1 comparison, but it really got me thinking.

I think the Scorpion is a decent gun. They've gotten better and better since they came out, and they're not expensive. You can now buy a 3+, which fixes the majority of the gripes people have with the Evo, and for about $600. That's not a lot of coin for a pretty good design.

Now... in my searching about the Nemo Mongoose, I ran across this. The upper is $540, and it runs on a whole bunch of different lowers. It's still blowback, but eh, whatever. It solves enough of my other nitpicks with the Scorpion that it would be worth it to me built out something like this:


I was pretty interested at first, but come to find out AR9 Scorpion magazine lowers have suddenly become unobtanium in the last four months. New Frontier Armory used to make them and their last run of blems sold out back in December, and there's some company called Evolution X Defense making the same thing and calling it the XK9 - direct sales on Gunjoker. Evidently the weak point on those is the ejector, and the only thing I can find about someone who bought one said it came missing a bunch of pieces. PSA makes a lower that takes Scorpion makes, but they only sell it in a builders kit bundled with an upper and bolt for $379. Matador says their upper will work with that lower, but requires modifying the lower. Evidently Spike's made one, and now they don't.

Why is this so hard? Double stack, double feed is objectively better than double stack single feed, that's why SMG mags are typically designed that way. You got Magpul making a fantastic 35rd magazine for $14, and it supports last round bolt hold open, which apparently as Americans is something prefer - why not just start there? No, we gotta do Colt and Glock mags only because that's the way it's always been done, but if you ask real nice, we'll let you use $50-70 MP5 magazines.

I feel like what I'm looking for shouldn't be that hard to find for less than, or around a grand. That's what it boils down to. A few months ago, it would've been $540 plus $180, some AR parts I already have, a tax stamp, and a 1913 stock. Done.

I'm never sure where you are heading, but I always know it will almost always involve some obscure unobtanium thing from someone I have never heard of.
Do you have like a 1000 scorpion mags?
The best and completely workable 9mm PCC at or less than a grand is any number of glock mag AR9's. Easily built, and easily bought.
SBR is a constant at $200. And mags are certainly available in the same cost range as the Scorpion mags.
What is missing from that choice? Can't be recoil because the scorpion and an AR9 slam a big bolt around. Can't be aftermarket because the AR aftermarket shames the scorpion market.
Me personally I got on the scorpion bus early on and modified the heck out of several of them. Shot them a lot. But in the end when you get done spending a bunch to fix the plethera of problems its still not even remotely better than just an ar9 with the things you want on it. And its nearly the cost of the CMMG which is way batter. And its not far from the GHM9, which has the advantage of being able to use the scorpion mags, in an easily available lower.
The APC is a great gun and despite the criticism of dwd1985 its way better than any MPX and most everything else, but its also way more expensive except for the real HK's.
I don't have one (I'm getting one) but you might look at the Stribog (now with glock mag option) but its still 30% more than an very nice AR9.

quote:

Originally posted by Voshterkoff:
It’s never been easier to get into an MP5 than current prices for a MKE import.

I agree, although prices are going up slightly on them from the manufacturer. They are a nice shooting platform to expand upon.

quote:

Originally posted by hrcjon:
I'm never sure where you are heading, but I always know it will almost always involve some obscure unobtanium thing from someone I have never heard of.

Lol.

I don't know if you play guitar or not, but I've been playing on and off for over twenty five years now. When I first started playing, I bought the first used thing I could get my hands on and then started going to the only guitar shop in driving distance any chance I could. Total kid in a candy store situation. Man, I looked at everything in there. The old fella who owned the place told me to just get a Les Paul and be done with it. I spent years playing, buying, trading, selling, and sampling everything I could get my hands on. Got into the retail music industry and did that whole thing on and off for a decade or so just so I could get the good deals while I wheeled and dealed. Played, owned, sold, and worked on all kinds of wild, unusual, and rare guitars. At the end of all that, I have a plain, natural finish Les Paul. A total "nothing fancy" just brown wood guitar. I could've skipped all that and just bought one of those when I was a teenager, the very same model the old man had hanging on the wall, but I would've missed out on the journey to get there, and honestly, I learned a lot and had a lot of fun on the way.

I guess maybe that means I'll end up with an MP5 somewhere down the road.

quote:

Originally posted by hrcjon:
I don't have one (I'm getting one) but you might look at the Stribog (now with glock mag option) but its still 30% more than an very nice AR9.

Yeah, I was thinking about that after my little rant earlier. I don't know enough about them, I stopped paying attention way back when the first imports were having magazine related problems. I heard they fixed that and those guns are mostly figured and run right these days. Need to look at them again.

I don't have a thousand Scorpion mags, but I have dozens of Glock mags, maybe somewhere up around a hundred. I don't know. For sure, enough that just having an AR9 with a Glock lower would make plenty of sense. A Stribog with the factory Glock magwell plus a Lingle Scorpion lower seems more fun, though, and then I can just start stockpiling Magpul 35's for it and the Scorpion. I have a binary AR trigger that's been sitting in a parts bin, and that would be fun to put in the Lingle lower for maximum giggles.