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| Member |
DD55, I would like to congratulate you being able to complicate something that is very simple. If you are just starting out shooting at longer ranges and you need to use a chart like you produce above, you have a tough road ahead of you. The MOA system is designed to be simplicity in itself and remove the need to figure out inches and distances when shooting at longer ranges, replacing all that measuring with a simple displacement measure; the minute of angle. I am not familiar with any scope reticle that has inches etched on the reticle, and if there was one, I for one, would have a difficult time holding 33.504 inches right at 800 yards. And as for elevation, I would lose what's left of my sanity trying to count 251.367 inches to get to 1000 yards. What you need to do is let go of inches and think MOA (or Mil if that's your preference.) When I get on the line in a competition, I look at the flags and I say to myself, "that is a 2MOA wind," not "that's a 20.94 inch wind." I can then adjust the scope for 2 MOAs (16 clicks) or hold off on the target for 2 MOAs. The MOA is not related to distance. Two MOAs is 2 MOAs at any distance and that's the beauty of the system; it's an angular measure and that's what we have on our scopes dials and aperture sights. So, flush down that chart and start thinking MOA, especially if you want to be able to communicate with other shooters. Also, the use of decimals on your chart renders pointless whatever use you think you might get out of it, and to the third position? Really? You will gain a lot more by learning to co-relate your wind observations with an MOA adjustment. | |||
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| Knows too little about too much  |
For what its worth, I agree. Go back to your spreadsheet and convert those inches TO MOA with one decimal place. I personally prefer MILS due to my metric background, but MOA is more common in this country among civilian shooters. RMD TL Davis: “The Second Amendment is special, not because it protects guns, but because its violation signals a government with the intention to oppress its people…” Remember: After the first one, the rest are free. | |||
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| Alea iacta est |
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| Bamf |
Of course I know that a scope is not adjusted in inches, and that the second and third decimal are useless. The reason I made this chart is not to take it out on the firing line and reference it.. I made it because I cannot yet do what you say I need to learn, and this has helped me tremendously to be able to. If you find it useless, no big deal - but I thought anyone else who was in my boat may have found it useful. You said that I need to forget inches and think in MOA, and that is what this is helping me do. I couldn't even really visualize what 5 MOA looked like at 600 yards before I made this chart, so there would be no way I could just make that call out of nowhere. I could have sat down and figured it out, but now I'm becoming better at it. I know you've been shooting for a long time, so this complicates a "simple" concept for you... While the concept is simple, this is my way of learning it, and my road is not quite as long as you may think. So I have not complicated anything for myself. Again, if you have been shooting for a while, you probably don't want/need this. If your brain visualizes this easier than mine does, you don't need it. I never said I made a chart that would teach all new shooters how to shoot. "I have a suggestion to keep you all occupied. Learn to swim" - Ænema | |||
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| Member |
I understand what you are saying, but I don't think you understand what I am saying. Yes, I've been doing this for (quite) a while and I thought I would share this knowledge with you and others here. You're just starting off in long range and I am telling you to let go of inches, a linear measure and instead concentrate on MOA (or mils), an angular measure. Stop trying to equate MOAs back to inches, just think MOA from now on. | |||
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| Bamf |
I believe I do understand what you are saying - and I believe it is good advice. In fact, that's precisely what the chart has helped me do. Not everyone learns concepts the same way. Had I not made the chart, I would have taken much longer to be able to simply visualize a given MOA at a given distance. When I was learning Spanish, people kept telling me that I needed to stop asking what the words meant, and to just practice using them in a sentence because it was the best way to learn. They told me that I needed to stop concentrating on what the word meant in English, and just let go of the English translation. Well, it may be the best way for some people - but it wasn't for me. I was lost, but once I made the flashcards - I was golden. Then I was able to "let go" of the English translation, and concentrate only on the Spanish. "I have a suggestion to keep you all occupied. Learn to swim" - Ænema | |||
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Chasing Bugholes |
You seem pretty well set on your methods, so I won't comment on that. I will about the quote above. I have no idea what reticle your scope has but most have some indication of certain MOA or Mil values in them. Visualizing at any distance is as easy as looking through your scope. If SFP make sure it's on the right power setting. Things get a lot simpler once apples and oranges stop mixing together. | |||
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| Bamf |
Agreed - now that I feel like I understand MOA well enough - I have no need to look at the chart again. The chart simply helped me understand something that I couldn't wrap my head around as easily as many other shooters. The chart was never something I wanted to reference when I was on the firing line and making adjustments on my scope. I said that when I first posted the chart.This message has been edited. Last edited by: DevlDogs55, "I have a suggestion to keep you all occupied. Learn to swim" - Ænema | |||
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| Member |
Just received my barreled action back chambered in another 6x47. Bighorn action, Kreiger 24" Medium Palma barrel, Surefire brake. No intentions of ever getting a suppressor, went with the Surefire brake because of the larger ports (easier to clean) and didn't want a brake that needs to be contoured, will have this barrel shot out by Sept-Oct, want to re-use the brake on the next barrels. Shot 50rds through it. Zero'd the scope at 100yds and shot 3-5 shot groups at 490yds, 3 different charges/Berger 105 Hybrids. It's shooting exceptionally well so far. Didn't chrono the loads, guessing 2980-3020? Rifle as pictured weighs 13.7 lbs, very nice balance for the weight. Need to do a couple more things to it, chop down the front bi-pod PIC rail and add a front sling mount. Will drill/machine a hole in the front tube for a Noveske QD Flush sling mount. Added a the Noveske mount to my AICS stock. Been shooting a lot with a cuff sling, having the sling mount just in front of where my support hand would naturally be I believe is the way to go.  Noveske sling mount added to the AICS stock. Had to mill the slot a little wider to accommodate the mount.  | |||
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| Member |
Nice stick. You really do have a nice stable of rifles. I just got my two GAPs back from TJ's -- they threaded the muzzles and installed caps. The end results look quite good. I am moving towards suppressors, and will have a chance to shoot both sticks with cans in June. | |||
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| The Constable |
Nice rifle. Does the Surefire brake make much of a difference? I've never used a brake on anything other than the big stuff. I went back and forth on doing a brake on the 6.5 x 47 and never installed one. FN in MT | |||
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| Member |
I'll thin out the stable this fall, sell off a action/stock.... Get it down to two rifles, heavy 6x47 for square range matches and not as heavy 6x47 for positional matches. Thunderbeast can? | |||
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| Member |
Holler when the thinning occurs -- I might be interested in increasing my herd. Thunderbeast is #1 consideration at this time for 6.5CM and .308Win. Firing Line has a new one with a hexagonal outer shell, but I can't recall the name. I may be able to try them both in a couple of months. If I get one for the .223 carbines it will likely be Surefire SOCOM. I got to play with one for 4 days last year in a carbine class. Mongo like. | |||
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| Member |
The Surefire brake makes a difference, very little recoil. This rifle I'll be mostly shooting positional steel matches with it. Shot a match a couple weeks ago with my bare barreled 6x47, 53 shot match, didn't see at least 10 impacts because of the shooting positions. Got to spot my own hits/misses to measure for wind corrections for the next shot. Shooting prone on a square range where it's easy to load the bi-pod, don't need a brake. Brake your 6.5x47? I've shot a friends 6.5x47/24" M24 contour barrel/AICS stock, had an easy time staying on target in prone. If I were shooting off a bench in which I couldn't load the bi-pod, then maybe? I've had barrels from 22-28" w/o a brakes, the longer 28" barrel was definitely easier to control. Here's a cool brake demo. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tMLMof4P8Hk | |||
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| Chasing Bugholes |
Nice setup with the XLR offgrid. Just picked up a Hardinge HLV-H Super Precision lathe from a good customer for the shop. Will be perfect for chambering barrels also. Will be making a rear spider and picking up necessary tooling for that over the next little while. Thinking of starting with a 6x47 barrel for my XLR gun or maybe some 7mm variant. Or both  Should be fun. | |||
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| Member |
That's amazing. I wouldn't let any of my guns do a backflip off a bench, however. I also would have run a rod or snake down the barrel "just to be sure" that dirt still wasn't in the bore. After being the nut behind the butt for unbraked, braked, and suppressed rifles in a number of chamberings (.223Rem, .260Rem, 6.5Creedmoor, .308Win, .300WM, .300WSM, 7mmWSM, .338LM, .50BMG), I can honestly state that both brakes and cans really cut down on felt recoil. I don't like the blast of brakes. I wish cans weren't so regulated. FN in MT -- A Surefire brake (and others, too) will definitely make a difference in recoil for a 6.5x47. Nearby shooters won't like you, however. | |||
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| The Constable |
Thanks for the info offgrid and Fritz. I've really not had any chances to shoot the new rifle that much this past winter, but have a shoot from 100 to 1K yds this Saturday. So it's first real field test. I shoot with two guys with 6.5 x 284's a .300 Win mag and a .408 Chey-Tac, that are all braked...So I'd only add a little more obnoxious noise. FN in MT | |||
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Member |
A suppressor works great for recoil reduction and has the added advantage of being easier on the ears. Actually, the decreased concussion, even as compared to a rifle WITHOUT a brake, makes a big difference in tendency to flinch, too. I use a TBAC 30P-1 on my 6.5 Creedmoor. | |||
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| Member |
What caliber would you consider if increasing the herd? | |||
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| Member |
Have a few shot out barrels, you're welcome to them. Seen this? I know Beanland uses this jig. http://www.straightshotgunsmithing.com/page25 | |||
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