quote:

Originally posted by jelrod1:
Never shot with a cuff sling before. It does look like it might be a way to go there if the strap is not too high.

I strung up a strap at about the same height as the one pictured. Sitting using a cuff sling felt very solid dry firing at a 1" dot at 70yds. No backpack or bag. Putting no forward pressure on the strap, just using it as a rest. If I got the height right, that's how I would shoot that stage. If the strap was higher, would shoot kneeling as pictured in Rifles Only video except have legs reversed, knee to elbow on strong arm.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3y2xYuBQ0Y

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqaIB7vzvqs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hwk3iDMdEDg

The TIS Quick cuff is the one to get. The TAB cuff slips, can't get it tight enough.

+1 to offgrid's comments

I use TAB gear slings -- even had Tony Burke (aka owner/designer) adjust my first TAB sling to me at Rifles Only grounds. In the third video, Jacob demostrates the TAB sling pretty darn well.

IMO the key to using a sling is playing with multiple positions -- low through high sitting, low through high kneeling, reversing knee positions, playing with crouches, and anything that feels uncomfy.

Another option is using your bipod to apply either forward or rearward pressure on a barrier. Experiment with various bipod leg positions, sometimes using only one leg. This is one reason I prefer Atlas over Harris, as the Atlas locks into position.

Thanks guys. I'll get one and practice with it. Certainly looks like that is the right way to shoot that position. Will take it with me next month and try to get behind that if possible to test.

Any other gear you guys would recommend? Have a regular Tab sling, Tab bag, and a couple other shaped bags. Using the Harris swivel with notched legs right now and podlock for a couple reasons. One I have it, and two the Sentinel stock has a pocket cut out specifically for it. I do have the rail for the stock though and stuck it on to try the LRA bipod I use on the XLR and it won't fit around the stock. I do like that the LRA locks like an Atlas and is very solid just won't work with this stock.

Been using this bag for over year. Prefer this style over the sand-like filled heavier bags.

http://3gungear.corecommerce.c...l-Shmooshie-p55.html

After watching the videos you posted again fully through I saw how to shoot that position with my Tab sling like Jacob showed. Practiced several height positions tonight and felt solid without resting on anything. Should really be stable if I can "load" the strap. Dry firing looked good. Whole new world when you get up from prone and start trying other things

I do like the looks of the Quick Cuff TIS better and can see how it would be preferred when needing to shoot that way. Just ordered one to try out.

Guess what I got back today!







By no means a full custom, but a broughton 5c 10 twist finished at 31", bedded, and a custom 30 MOA rail.

Need to get on the load development now. I shot 175 Bergers all last year, but thanks to FNinMT I have the 185s to give a go with this year!

Mike....Looks nice. 31"!!
I thought I was overcompensating at 28"!

FINALLY got out early this morning before the wind picked up, between frontal systems and got a nice 45 minute range/crono session in with the 6.5x47 L. Haven't shot a round between wind and below zero temps.... for a solid MONTH.

The two loads that showed promise DID end up shooting well. The 130 Berger VLD's went .238" for five and the 136 Lapua Scenar-L's did .302" for five at 100 yds.

My only issue is getting me extreme spreads DOWN. I'm still at 20+ fps. going to try a different neck bushing and 205M primers to seeif either has an effect.

Plenty of accuracy now to get the ES down.

STILL a mess of those 185's at Big R in Gt Falls!! Happy to snag more if you need em.

FN in MT

quote:

Originally posted by jelrod1:
After watching the videos you posted again fully through I saw how to shoot that position with my Tab sling like Jacob showed. Practiced several height positions tonight and felt solid without resting on anything. Should really be stable if I can "load" the strap. Dry firing looked good. Whole new world when you get up from prone and start trying other things

I do like the looks of the Quick Cuff TIS better and can see how it would be preferred when needing to shoot that way. Just ordered one to try out.

Not sure where you sling attachment point is on your stock. I prefer having that point in front of where I would normally have my support hand when shooting off hand. There's a rod/pin going through the AICS stock, clip the sling to it. Wasn't design to have a sling attached there, it works. When I'm carrying the rifle hook the sling back to the front/side.

Ya, it certainly is a whole new world/skill set getting off your belly. Did a bunch of dry-firing this afternoon off of the sticks. Drop back down into prone feels like I'm in a vice.

quote:

Originally posted by FN in MT:
Mike....Looks nice. 31"!!
I thought I was overcompensating at 28"!

FINALLY got out early this morning before the wind picked up, between frontal systems and got a nice 45 minute range/crono session in with the 6.5x47 L. Haven't shot a round between wind and below zero temps.... for a solid MONTH.

The two loads that showed promise DID end up shooting well. The 130 Berger VLD's went .238" for five and the 136 Lapua Scenar-L's did .302" for five at 100 yds.

My only issue is getting me extreme spreads DOWN. I'm still at 20+ fps. going to try a different neck bushing and 205M primers to seeif either has an effect.

Plenty of accuracy now to get the ES down.

STILL a mess of those 185's at Big R in Gt Falls!! Happy to snag more if you need em.

FN in MT

What's your neck tension? .001 has been working nicely for me.

Lapua brass of course. .290" neck diameter on fired cases. Using a .288" bushing now for .002" of tension.

I'll try the .289" bushing and see how that goes.

I surely can't bitch about accuracy! Nice to have a LOADING issue versus a "Why isn't this shooting" issue. LOL.

May try some 205M primers...as well as adding some OCL. Currently the VLD's are just touching the lands. ( +.003" jam)

I am pleasantly surprised how well those Lapua 136 gr Scenar-L bullets are shooting. Now I'm happy I bought a 1K box of them a few months back...basically on good faith.

FN in MT

offgrid, sling mount is visible in the first post/first picture. On side behind the bipod. Feels pretty good using the Tab sling. I think the TIS cuff will be more comfortable. Got to get me some of those sticks.

FN, I usually start with .001 tension and go more if needed. I ended up at .002 on the 6.5x47 and .002 with 6br for best ES. Both using CCI 450. For .308 was .003. I've not figured out a sure fire way to ensure single digit ES, but I'll share some observations. I have two loads for my 6.5x47 Sentinel rifle now. One for steel shooting and one for bench rest. There's some differences in the steps and my benchrest load has had single digit ES the last couple times tested. The steel load has been hovering around 18-20. Also remember chronographs have been known to lie. The target, at distance, tells me the most.

In any gun/caliber I've ever tested best ES seems to come at the upper end of pressures. That means more case fill also so which one matters most I don't know, but it seems to be better there.

Accurate powder charge, consistent tension, right amount of tension, primers seated properly, consistent case volumes, Seating depth, bullet weight and bearing surface length, all can contribute. And, as you know the farther distance out the more it shows up as vertical.

The extras I am doing now for benchrest loads:

-Weighing powder to the kernel-
I still do that with my steel load but you have to stop somewhere and it might as well be the correct spot.

-New box of Lapua brass gets weighed and sorted-
I end up with a little over half the same weight with most boxes. They are to be used for record shots and the others sighters. A very accomplished benchrest shooter shared with me that he uses this method and is of belief that if same lot Lapua brass weighs the same before shot it will have consistent volumes. I've not proven that wrong and my testing is satisfactory to me.

-The bullets are sorted by weight and bearing surface length-
I have 3 piles when I'm done. Two weights seem to congregate and the other lesser pile for sighters. Then the "good" groups are sorted by bearing length. Anything out of whack goes into the sighter pile. Does make use of all those empty bullet boxes

-Seating with an arbor press with force measurement-
When seating the "good" bullets into "good" cases I separate them by seating force required. No matter what I've done they seem to fall into two different forces required to seat.

-Checking Runout-
After the "good" ones are done I check runout on the one's for bench rest. Also look the meplats over to make sure nothing is up with them.

-I'm FL sizing both loads and annealing every firing. Helps me with shoulder setback consistency and neck tension.

My last couple testing sessions at 1000 with the two different loads showed me what all this nets me. On average my steel load gets around 4-4.5" vertical and has ES near 20. The benchrest load averages 2.5-3" vertical and ES single digit. That wouldn't make the extra efforts worth it for most, but with a 3" X ring it is for me. Also keep in mind these are not for quantity but quality. I need 10 record rounds that are the best they can be and some sighters for that game. I also set up a paper target at what I thought was 600 but ended up being 560 yards last time out to test the benchrest loads at that distance. It was the recent posted day where conditions stunk. The group sucked at around 4" but vertical was only a little over 1/2". Looked like a straight line across the paper. More than happy with that.

Now that I'm bumping the first benchrest match of the season for the steel match in VA all the testing for this gun was for nothing but is always a learning experience. My other gun will be ready before the next so the Sentinel rifle will be used just for steel comps now like it should be.

Experiences with the 6br have been slightly different. I have not had to do near the things as with this one to get single digit ES. Lots of variables and I have no clue why. Different caliber, powder, bullets, gun, so who knows.

Hope this gives you some ideas to try and maybe others can share their observations concerning ES.

jelrod,

I'm weighing charges to the kernel, but need to measure and segregate bullets. Found tonight that my 130 VLD's vary base to ogive as much as .007". and that was a small sampling. The Lapua Scenar-l 136's were amazingly close...again a small couple of dozen sampling only. Something else to look into with segregating bullets.

Still haven't sorted cases either...that's next I guess.

Have access to an annealer ,been doing that every 3rd load.

This CAN get pretty anal can't it? LOL.

I feel sooooo inadequate.

FN

I see the same thing with the Berger 130's and is one reason why I'll be using JLK's with the other rifle. Another reason is the meplats. It's a lot of extra work sorting them and for steel I'm not going to. Accuracy is plenty acceptable without for me and that purpose plus a lot more volume.
Also wish the brass came closer to the quality of the 6br brass. It's good stuff.

jelrod1, couldn't tell if you had a QD mount on the bottom PIC rail, I prefer having the sling attached to the bottom opposed to the side of the stock. Although on your stock the side QD mount is further back compared to the mount point on the AICS stocks. I'm using the Stoney Point sticks because of the Raton match, only allowed two points of contact with sticks. Plan on picking up a tripod and Hog saddle soon.

It's cool you can see all your hard work and time pay off on paper at distance, testimony to your shooting ability/fundamentals. I suppose most of the other BR guys you will be competing against have similar reloading steps.

I do a little bullet sorting, shoot pulled bullets at distances between 2-300yds at steel matches on square ranges

Cleaned up my reloading room this AM. Came across a Holland scope level for a 34MM scope tube. It came with a used scope I purchase a while back, didn't know the guy was including it, free-bee. Have no use for it. 1st one to post I'll take it, it's yours.

http://www.hollandguns.com/index.html

WHERE was that level when I BOOUGHT one for my ATACR?? I'm always a day late and a dollar short. LOL.

quote:

Originally posted by entropy:
I feel sooooo inadequate.

Yeah, me too.

I'll bet they take their components to bed.

No offense, but somehow I picture YOUR reloading room with piped in Mozart directed at your sized, primed, and "acclimating" cases.

Not that there's necessarily anything wrong with that.

quote:

Originally posted by entropy:
No offense, but somehow I picture YOUR reloading room with piped in Mozart directed at your sized, primed, and "acclimating" cases.

Not that there's necessarily anything wrong with that.

Maybe WHY my cases fail to "acclimate" and my ES's are too high!

As a child of the 60's I listen to the Beatles, Cream, assorted Acid rock, and about everything in between to the Beach Boys, Jan and Dean and a few others.

I need to go Classical maybe?

This morning at 14° before the wind came up...

Segregated several once fired Lapua cases by weight.

Neck sized those with .001" of grip in my Whidden FL die with a .289" neck bushing.

Segregated several 130 Berger VLD's by base to ogive ddistance. All within .001" .

Seated over 40.50 grains of H-4350 down to the hundredth of a grain. Courtesy of my Gem Pro scale.

.005" jam, seated with my Whidden die.

At 100 yds. Five into .321" avg velocity 2858 fps. EXTREME SPREAD=FIVE FPS!!

I'm where I'd hoped to be with a little bit of care segregating bullets and cases. One five shot group is hardly a thorough test, but I think the segregating and accurate charges are THE solution.

Thanks offgrid and jelrod.