Sigfreund, you have more experience and knowledge than I but I thought a safety tab was one of the ways speculated that could have prevented the drop issues but Sig chose to fix it a different way with the thin/lightweight trigger along with the other changes they made. I’m not an expert or engineer, just a guy spitballing here but I do wonder if there are certain holsters that can flex or apply force to a holstered gun’s trigger that hasn’t been discovered yet that doesnt cause an issue on guns with the safety tab that need to be depressed in the middle of the trigger to allow them to fire. All I’m saying is with the history of the gun, I lean more towards “that possibility should be looked into” rather than “theres no way that could happen” as a starting point for these claims.

I think we are starting to see a small shift in the gun/training industry as of late where people are starting to question what the end goal for a defensive firearm should be. For a long time it was marching in the direction of removing take-up and lightening striker fired triggers to the point where you’re basically walking around with a 1911 in your pants without a thumb or grip safety. I’ve seen a few videos lately from people in the firearms training world discuss that more often and frankly, I’ve had that belief for about 10 years now watching every manner of custom Glock trigger come out removing just about all take up and lightening them, some removing so much takeup that they are disabling the firing pin block safety before a finger is even on the trigger.

The trigger of “upgraded” P320s was lightened, and I can only assume it was to help ensure that its inertia didn’t contribute to a drop firing problem*. How important was that? I don’t know, but it clearly wasn’t the only reason that under some circumstances the pistol would fire if dropped. If it had been, the fault caused by a too-heavy trigger without the movement limiting tab would have shown up in all the usual drop testing, including my own experiments. And, as I say, just adding the safety tab would have eliminated the problem without all the other modifications. Although it wasn’t advertised for long, in the beginning SIG said that tabbed triggers would be available as options, so they would have been a feasible fix if it had been all that was necessary.

And to reiterate, if the modified P320 were capable of being discharged without pressing the trigger to the rear, I cannot imagine that that wouldn’t have been discovered and trumpeted to the world long before now. When I think of the literally countless “What if?” questions pertaining to such a subject, I’m reminded of an observation by Judge Learned Hand: “[L]ife is made up of a series of judgements on insufficient data, and if we waited to run down all our doubts, it would flow past us.” At this point my doubts about the safety of the P320 pistol have been resolved to what I consider to be a reasonable degree and I am willing to make the gun a part of my life.

But a separate question is whether it’s possible that using a defective holster could result a holstered gun’s discharging when carried. If that could happen with a gun that was stuffed in one’s waistband without a holster, then it could obviously happen with a holster that was flimsy and flexible enough to permit the trigger to be pushed to the rear. Now, however, we’re getting into speculation that’s simply not reasonable if we’re discussing any modern holster suitable for uniformed law enforcement duty use. I own several such holsters, including some I’ve had for decades, and none would permit such pressure on the trigger under any normal conditions; they are all much too rigid and stiff. The manufacturer of any holster for any purpose that made that possible would be running a huge liability risk, but if they did, it would be the holster’s fault, not the gun’s.

Despite all that, I do agree that defensive handgun trigger strokes that are too light and too short are unwise. Not only are they less forgiving of gun handling errors, I believe they don’t do average shooters any favors for shooting control and accuracy. In any event, I wouldn’t want anyone to accept my views simply because they believe I must know what I’m talking about due to experience or for any other reason. I try to explain the reasons for my beliefs and everyone should examine those reasons and judge them on their own merits.

* After further thought and analysis, I no longer believe that. I will probably post another thread discussing that question.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: sigfreund,

quote:

Now, however, we’re getting into speculation that’s simply not reasonable if we’re discussing any modern holster suitable for uniformed law enforcement duty use. I own several such holsters, including some I’ve had for decades, and none would permit such pressure on the trigger under any normal conditions; they are all much too rigid and stiff. The manufacturer of any holster for any purpose that made that possible would be running a huge liability risk, but if they did, it would be the holster’s fault, not the gun’s.

Reading through the last few posts, I was about to reply just that, but you beat me to it! I can see the holster being an issue with some flimsy low-quality stuff, but these are cops we are talking about, who would be using rigid duty holsters. There simply is no way that these holsters would encroach on the trigger in the manner being described...and if they had they would have to be so significantly damaged or deformed as to be blatantly obvious in the follow-up investigation.

I'm a sig certified P320 armorer...I know how the gun functions. I have thousands and thousands of rounds through P320s. I've fought with people, fallen on asphalt, slammed into cars, doorways, and walls. I've run through woods and cornfields, swam in swamps, even been dumped out of a canoe onto rocks with one on. Never once has it discharged without the trigger being pulled. Nor have I seen that happen with any of the 150 or so other issued P320s in our county.

From what I know about the gun, about duty gear, and about cops, my money is on negligent handling causing the vast majority of these stories. The same thing happened back when departments switched to Glocks...guys wouldn't clear the gun before pulling the trigger to take it down, and then somehow the subsequent hole in the floor/ceiling/leg was the gun's fault, not the fault of the negligent moron behind the trigger.

Well...certainly based on the Omaha Outdoors high speed video of the 320 drops, an 'inertia safety' mechanism of some sort could've easily prevented the kinetic energy from the gun hitting the floor from transferring that energy into the 320's trigger action that ultimately causes a pre-upgrade gun to light off. Whether a Glock-style solution would work with the 320's trigger group may be debatable, but it seems evident that SIG let that one sneak past them. When the 320 was first introduced, SIG actually showed a version of the trigger WITH a Glock-style inertia safety on display alongside the non-tabbed version that they ultimately went with. Whether that was merely a mockup or an actual working solution we'll probably never know, but at least for a while it seems someone at SIG thought about doing it.

As for whether this sort of anti-inertia mechanism is valid in the first place...well it's damn reason WHY Glock put the bloody thing on their first pistol in the first place, and have been doing so ever since. And it's also a big reason why almost every other striker gun from a major maker uses the same sort of trigger inertia block on their striker pistols. The thing does what it's supposed to do when it comes to drops and hard contact.

As for whether that inertia block (I've decided that this descriptor works better than "trigger safety" which is most people call this mechanism) would stop any gun from "firing on its own"; first of all the gun DOESN'T fire on its own if a holster's contact is the actual instigator of these unintentional discharges. That's just a litigation lawyer mouthing melodrama for effect. The key would be just how much a holster's retention design (presuming that it uses the trigger guard to 'hold' onto the firearm) is potentially coming into contact with the trigger bow/shoe, especially if the fit of the gun within the holster in question is on the loose(r) side. Given that SIG doesn't use any sort of shoe-position lockup mechanism, a poorly designed/made holster can spell all sorts of trouble if indeed body motion will cause the 320/holster/both to move around to the point that the holster can actually come into contact with at least a portion of the trigger and ultimately cause the weapon to fire.

Having that anti-inertia mechanism in place is not an absolute guarantee that a holster will not cause a Glock, P-10C or a VP9 from discharging, but it makes it far more unlikely. Those mechanisms are customarily centered on the shoe, and any holster that uses a retention design that extends THAT far into the trigger guard would likely be unusable to begin with, since it probably would make holstering and drawing the weapon next to impossible to do. Not to mention that something this intrusive would/should automatically be deemed unsafe during any sort of proper evaluation process by an agency or department.

I certainly would like to know what brand(s) of holsters are involved with these discharge incidents.

You all might surprised at how cops treat their holsters. I saw holsters that were so deteriorated that I was amazed the gun stayed in it all. Filthy, torn and with broken snaps as well as putting guns into holsters that were for a different model of gun. I saw cops who used their holsters as arm rests and the resultant wear caused the holster to be bent out of shape. I saw quite a few cops who bought level 3 holsters and when it was time to qualify, could not release the retention devices to draw the gun.
I dont believe the holster has been invented that a cop cant screw up.
My Dept. would issue a fairly basic holster but allow officers to buy their own. Thats when problems occurred!

When I want to carry a pistol, I select a holster. Then I begin experimenting with the pistol in the holster. I wear the holster by itself for a few days. Then wear it with the unloaded firearm for a few days then begin doing a lot of draws and reholsterings with the unloaded pistol, and try to see if I can find a problem. I look very closely at the trigger guard interface, try compressing the trigger, see about effects of clothing interfering. I do that for about two weeks before I'll consider carrying the pistol holster combination.

A lot of cops I know are just not "gun people", they know next to nothing about their duty weapon. Just as many people who drive cars, can't even change a tire or jump start it.

You get people who leave their vehicle running and forget to put their car in park before getting out or confusing the throttle with the brake, you will get people that pull the trigger when they don't mean to or leave a round chambered when they thought they unloaded it. Familiarity many times breeds complacency.

LOL cops and their gear. Most people here would shudder at how poorly *most* cops treat their guns and gear. I had a training day today and had to walk around and lube the hoods on EVERYONE (but one) holsters.

I find the allegations that cops are having guns go off in the holster hilarious.

quote:

I had a training day today and had to walk around and lube the hoods on EVERYONE (but one) holsters.

I’m gonna feel like a dumbass but I have to ask. What is lubing a holster hood?

quote:

Originally posted by cslinger:

quote:

I had a training day today and had to walk around and lube the hoods on EVERYONE (but one) holsters.

I’m gonna feel like a dumbass but I have to ask. What is lubing a holster hood?

Safariland holsters, like the gold standard 6360, have a rotating hood. The thumb rotates the hood forward on the draw stroke. The hood has metal parts that allow it to raise, lower, and rotate forward and back. They are metal and require occasional lube.

Gotcha, I sort of figured it had to do with the retention system but I have never used any of those types of systems.

Thanks much.

quote:

Originally posted by 92fstech:

quote:

Now, however, we’re getting into speculation that’s simply not reasonable if we’re discussing any modern holster suitable for uniformed law enforcement duty use. I own several such holsters, including some I’ve had for decades, and none would permit such pressure on the trigger under any normal conditions; they are all much too rigid and stiff. The manufacturer of any holster for any purpose that made that possible would be running a huge liability risk, but if they did, it would be the holster’s fault, not the gun’s.

Reading through the last few posts, I was about to reply just that, but you beat me to it! I can see the holster being an issue with some flimsy low-quality stuff, but these are cops we are talking about, who would be using rigid duty holsters. There simply is no way that these holsters would encroach on the trigger in the manner being described...and if they had they would have to be so significantly damaged or deformed as to be blatantly obvious in the follow-up investigation.

I'm a sig certified P320 armorer...I know how the gun functions. I have thousands and thousands of rounds through P320s. I've fought with people, fallen on asphalt, slammed into cars, doorways, and walls. I've run through woods and cornfields, swam in swamps, even been dumped out of a canoe onto rocks with one on. Never once has it discharged without the trigger being pulled. Nor have I seen that happen with any of the 150 or so other issued P320s in our county.

From what I know about the gun, about duty gear, and about cops, my money is on negligent handling causing the vast majority of these stories. The same thing happened back when departments switched to Glocks...guys wouldn't clear the gun before pulling the trigger to take it down, and then somehow the subsequent hole in the floor/ceiling/leg was the gun's fault, not the fault of the negligent moron behind the trigger.

I think you're probably correct that the majority of the incidents will turn out to be NDs including Guay's (He apparently did not get his 320 upgraded) But, there are at least a couple that appear that they could be ADs versus NDs, such as the Kneski discharge. After that particular incident, MAJ Villani, also a Sig armorer examined the firearm. "99. The Kneski discharge was investigated by Major Peter J. Villani of the United States Veterans Affairs police agency, also a SIG-certified armorer. In his report, he noted the following: After reviewing the Officer’s sidearm, it was noted that the P-320 came from Sig Sauer to the distributor prior to the point of sale already with the “upgrade” completed. The sidearm had approximately 100 rounds through it since purchased. 28 Upon further examination of the internal parts of the frame module, I noticed that the foot of the striker that catches the [sear] has noticeable side to side and up and down movement within its channel along with upward movement of the slide from the frame. Also, the edge of the striker foot which has a height thickness of approximately 2mm, is only making contact with approximately .25 of a mm of the leading edge only of the disconnector hook. Since the striker has been changed with a lighter weight version during the “upgrade program”, it is quite possible that any abrupt movement or twisting of the P-320 while holstered, could cause the foot of the striker to disengage itself from the disconnector hook on its own since there is so little contact between the striker foot and the [sear]." In a subsequent interview with a Boston news station, Viillani also stated "'Either Sig Sauer or their subcontractors, who made the parts for them, never finished the parts,' Villani said. 'They basically put the parts in raw so that the surface contacts weren't very finely tuned, so that would cause slippage.' So, since you too are a Sig armorer, I would be very interested in your take on MAJ Villani's conclusions.

First off, please keep in mind that an armorer is trained to diagnose obvious problems with the gun and replace parts as necessary. The armorer's course for the P320 is an 8 hour course...it covers disassembly and re-assembly of the weapon and function checks of the internal parts. It is not an engineering or gunsmithing course, nor does it address the precise tolerances of the internal parts.

Obviously not having seen the gun in question, I can't really evaluate the veracity of his claims, or compare his observations of that gun to another, however if there was indeed excessive movement of the striker within the channel, or between the striker and the sear, that would be a concern. That by itself should not be sufficient to allow the weapon to discharge, however, as the striker safety (what in the old days we called the firing pin block) would also need to be actuated in order to allow the gun to fire, even if the hook of the striker were to disengage from the sear due to loose tolerances. The striker safety has to defeat the downward pressure of its spring, and move up and out of the channel in order to allow the striker to travel far enough forward to impact the primer. In a properly functioning gun, this is achieved by upwards pressure from the safety lever only when the trigger is pulled. I don't see where Mr. Villani addresses this at all in this statement.

quote:

Originally posted by 92fstech:
First off, please keep in mind that an armorer is trained to diagnose obvious problems with the gun and replace parts as necessary. The armorer's course for the P320 is an 8 hour course...it covers disassembly and re-assembly of the weapon and function checks of the internal parts. It is not an engineering or gunsmithing course, nor does it address the precise tolerances of the internal parts.

Obviously not having seen the gun in question, I can't really evaluate the veracity of his claims, or compare his observations of that gun to another, however if there was indeed excessive movement of the striker within the channel, or between the striker and the sear, that would be a concern. That by itself should not be sufficient to allow the weapon to discharge, however, as the striker safety (what in the old days we called the firing pin block) would also need to be actuated in order to allow the gun to fire, even if the hook of the striker were to disengage from the sear due to loose tolerances. The striker safety has to defeat the downward pressure of its spring, and move up and out of the channel in order to allow the striker to travel far enough forward to impact the primer. In a properly functioning gun, this is achieved by upwards pressure from the safety lever only when the trigger is pulled. I don't see where Mr. Villani addresses this at all in this statement.

Have you seen any of the issues that MAJ Villani describes in any of the P320s issued by your county?

No

quote:

Originally posted by 92fstech:
No

Thanks.

Spitballing but is it possible that holsters that lock to the weapon via the slide (ejection port of a safariland als) could put enough tension and movement into the slide to cause a discharge if the striker/sear have barely any contact surface and opposing movement tension is put on the frame causing the two to separate and the striker releasing forward?

quote:

Originally posted by EmpireState:
Spitballing but is it possible that holsters that lock to the weapon via the slide (ejection port of a safariland als) could put enough tension and movement into the slide to cause a discharge if the striker/sear have barely any contact surface and opposing movement tension is put on the frame causing the two to separate and the striker releasing forward?

Even if it were possible for the holster to exert enough pressure to disengage the striker hook from the sear (which I doubt), it would still have to defeat the striker safety in order for the gun to fire. Simply "stretching" the tolerances between the slide and the frame isn't going to do this.

The slide rides on the underside of the rails, not the top. It's pushing up; it's already at it's maximum separation or distance between upper and lower. Depressing the trigger actually draws the slide down, if you watch the process on a pistol without a loaded magazine inserted. If you watch it with a magazine inserted, the slide isn't able to pull down slightly...but the slide is always resiting upward, not downward, meaning that it's always at it's maximum distance "up." A holster isn't going to increase that, because it can't.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: sns3guppy,

^^^€€€

Yep, nailed it.