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P320 Drop Safety in Question (Formerly DPD Recall thread) Login/Join 
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Ok! So... She is a cop. And she put a SERPA holstered pistol into a purse. Is that the stupidity in this case? Is that the setting for the event?
If so... If you needed the gun quickly to do cop stuff, you have to dig it out out of your purse, yank it out of the SERPA and then get busy?
Just sounds great to me. Roll Eyes


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Posts: 14004 | Location: Marquette MI | Registered: July 08, 2014Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Freethinker
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“If fifty million people say a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing.”
― Anatole France

Any number of people can make bogus claims in hopes of benefiting from settlements that are often made simply because it’s cheaper and less difficult than defending against them. In fact, such claims often snowball precisely because there are a lot of them, not because of their validity.




7/93
 
Posts: 45884 | Location: 10,150 Feet Above Sea Level in Colorado | Registered: April 04, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by YooperSigs:
Ok! So... She is a cop. And she put a SERPA holstered pistol into a purse. Is that the stupidity in this case? Is that the setting for the event?
If so... If you needed the gun quickly to do cop stuff, you have to dig it out out of your purse, yank it out of the SERPA and then get busy?
Just sounds great to me. Roll Eyes


My immediate thoughts as well. A gun with a very short light trigger, placed into a holster that doesn't adequately protect the trigger guard from foreign objects...carried in a purse full of a bunch of foreign objects. I don't think this plan was very well thought out.

To be fair to the Serpa (and yes, I know they suck)...it was never intended to be a purse holster.
 
Posts: 6122 | Location: In the Cornfields | Registered: May 25, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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It seems nearly all of the recent claims against Sig/320 are from police officers. What are we civilians doing with our 320's that some of our LEO's don't know about? (Yes, I carry every day)
 
Posts: 4979 | Registered: April 20, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
fugitive from reality
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quote:
Originally posted by Graniteguy:
It seems nearly all of the recent claims against Sig/320 are from police officers. What are we civilians doing with our 320's that some of our LEO's don't know about? (Yes, I carry every day)


LEO's have a long standing tradition of playing with their holstered pistols while on boring static posts. The lack of the trigger safety lever means any pressure on the trigger itself can move it to the rear, firing the pistol.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: SgtGold,


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Posts: 7026 | Location: Newyorkistan | Registered: March 28, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Graniteguy:
It seems nearly all of the recent claims against Sig/320 are from police officers. What are we civilians doing with our 320's that some of our LEO's don't know about? (Yes, I carry every day)


Well, cops are professionals.

That's what makes them so dangerous.
 
Posts: 6650 | Registered: September 13, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by SgtGold:
quote:
Originally posted by Graniteguy:
It seems nearly all of the recent claims against Sig/320 are from police officers. What are we civilians doing with our 320's that some of our LEO's don't know about? (Yes, I carry every day)


LEO's have a long standing tradition of playing with their holstered pistols while on boring static posts. The lack of the trigger safety lever means any pressure on the trigger itself can move it to the rear, firing the pistol.


Please define what you mean by “trigger safety” ?

From your statement you appear to be referring to the tab type safeties found on Glocks, as well as many modern striker fired pistols and bolt action rifles.

Though it is located on the trigger, those are not “trigger safeties.” They are inertia drop safeties. They prevent the trigger from moving due to inertia if dropped.

That’s it. They have no other function.

Nor does the 320’s lack of a tabbed inertia safety have anything to do with what you are talking about. Rather it is because when the trigger of a 320 is pulled, the trigger bar moves in the opposite direction vs Glocks etc.

Regarding your other point, yes there was one SRO in Florida whose P320 ND was traced to playing with a holstered pistol. That doesn’t mean it is an accepted practice.

I don’t know what you do for a living, but what ever it is, there are people in your profession with bad professional habits they should not engage in. Do you consider those “long standing traditions?”
 
Posts: 525 | Location: Texas | Registered: March 25, 2013Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by 92fstech:
quote:
Originally posted by YooperSigs:
Ok! So... She is a cop. And she put a SERPA holstered pistol into a purse. Is that the stupidity in this case? Is that the setting for the event?
If so... If you needed the gun quickly to do cop stuff, you have to dig it out out of your purse, yank it out of the SERPA and then get busy?
Just sounds great to me. Roll Eyes


My immediate thoughts as well. A gun with a very short light trigger, placed into a holster that doesn't adequately protect the trigger guard from foreign objects...carried in a purse full of a bunch of foreign objects. I don't think this plan was very well thought out.

To be fair to the Serpa (and yes, I know they suck)...it was never intended to be a purse holster.


I am a confirmed SERPA hater having seen snd treated more than one SERPA related ND Injury.

However in fairness to the officer the SERPA was apparently her department issued holster.
The department in question only has 16 officers.

They were not very clear about how they chose to transition from DA SIGs to the 320 but apparently they are dropping the 320s and going back k to DA SIGs.
 
Posts: 525 | Location: Texas | Registered: March 25, 2013Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by HCM:

They were not very clear about how they chose to transition from DA SIGs to the 320 but apparently they are dropping the 320s and going back k to DA SIGs.


It may be for the best, given the apparent weak handling skills.

In her case, one hopes she is issued a sidearm carved from a block of soap with a dull popsicle stick, given that she is apparently a danger to herself and all around her with anything more than a rusted potato peeler.
 
Posts: 6650 | Registered: September 13, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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On Glocks they are indeed called trigger safeties and the trigger bar acts as a the drop safety.



The Sig P320 has a fully cocked striker, which is not the case for the Glock, SW and others. The difference mechanically is significant as the trigger bar acts as the drop safety in Glock/SW.

Sig as part of the voluntary upgrade to fix the drop safety issue, installed a disconnector and a hollowed out trigger which decreases the amount of inertia in the trigger if dropped and prevents the gun from firing out of battery. Not the same as having the trigger/trigger bar complete the cocking of the firing pin.


Joe
 
Posts: 2401 | Location: Az | Registered: October 28, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Sig's "upgrade" wasn't. The "fixes" were already in place in the military offering, and the problem known to Sig. We all know Sig lied, including multiple times right here on this forum, very openly, and we knew it then as well as we know it now.

While the magical "discharges" that ONLY police officers are having "in their holsters" due to their own gross negligence and deplorable firearm handling skills are user error, Sig did dig themselves deep by selling a product that they advertised as drop safe, while KNOWING that the problem existed, and KNOWING that they offered a different version for military trials.

Sig was betting that the problem wouldn't rear its ugly head, and even when it did, they deceitfully called it an "upgrade," when we all knew that was horseshit. Sig offered the military the "upgraded" version from the start, while continuing to sell the P320 in it's less safe condition to civilians and law enforcement. This isn't debatable. It's well known and many of us here had the P320's before, and after the "upgrade," and are very well aware of the history.

Some big names have come on here to lie about it, and each were called out...this isn't really something that's controversial in any way, shape, or form. Sig lied. Sig put out a product knowing it was faulty. Sig's advertising wasn't simply deceitful; it was a bald lie. Sig offered an "upgrade," as though doing a favor, to preclude having to call it a "recall," when in fact, Sig should have recalled every P320 they sold, to correct what they knew had to be done much earlier on.
 
Posts: 6650 | Registered: September 13, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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The P320 passed all of the required drop tests. Just like your car has to pass all the required crash tests.

The P320 failed a drop test that was different then the specified test - impacting the ground at a specific angle instead of straight.

Your car may pass all of the crash tests, but not pass a non-standard test (different speed, different barrier type, different angle of impact, etc.).

I am not aware of any case of injury due to a drop on the back of the slide at the correct angle to cause it to fire. All of the litigated injuries involve "it just went off in my holster!" or similar claims that have zero to do with dropping the pistol on the back of the slide at the specific angle it needs to fire. Someone needs to explain how the firing pin safety lever was depressed and the striker released to cause these holster fires. The only way to release the FPS is pulling the trigger, so.....
 
Posts: 4370 | Location: Indiana | Registered: December 28, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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folks are entitled to their opinion. I believe there is an issue with the 320. Prior to the Sig 320 arriving to market most cops were already carrying some version of a striker fired gun. There were the occasional cases of guns being discharged but not with the frequency we are seeing now. There are plenty of other striker fired guns in Police use. How come we are not hearing the reports of M&P's discharging on their own? as an example. The video of the Michigan officer's discharging in the holster while he was on a traffic stop is pretty hard to overlook. My opinion is Sigs QC sucks on the guns. in assembly and parts tolerances
I hope Sig can work it out because the 320 is a nice shooting and ergonomic platform. I have three P-320s I regulate them to range guns only. For me, my Carrs guns are Glocks or M&Ps and a 365 . The 365 is a much different gun internally and does not seem to have the issues with uncomanded firing like the 320. YMMV
 
Posts: 419 | Location: people republic of Crapachusettes | Registered: September 05, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Graniteguy:
It seems nearly all of the recent claims against Sig/320 are from police officers. What are we civilians doing with our 320's that some of our LEO's don't know about? (Yes, I carry every day)


I think the difference lies in the nature and structure of police work itself. It would be very difficult to have a ND and not have somebody know about it, whether there was an injury involved or not. Unless there was an injury involved with a civilian ND, there's a pretty good chance nobody would know about it.


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Posts: 1877 | Location: South Dakota-pheasant country | Registered: June 20, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
fugitive from reality
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quote:
Originally posted by HCM:
quote:
Originally posted by SgtGold:
quote:
Originally posted by Graniteguy:
It seems nearly all of the recent claims against Sig/320 are from police officers. What are we civilians doing with our 320's that some of our LEO's don't know about? (Yes, I carry every day)


LEO's have a long standing tradition of playing with their holstered pistols while on boring static posts. The lack of the trigger safety lever means any pressure on the trigger itself can move it to the rear, firing the pistol.


Please define what you mean by “trigger safety” ?

From your statement you appear to be referring to the tab type safeties found on Glocks, as well as many modern striker fired pistols and bolt action rifles.

Though it is located on the trigger, those are not “trigger safeties.” They are inertia drop safeties. They prevent the trigger from moving due to inertia if dropped.

That’s it. They have no other function.

Nor does the 320’s lack of a tabbed inertia safety have anything to do with what you are talking about. Rather it is because when the trigger of a 320 is pulled, the trigger bar moves in the opposite direction vs Glocks etc.

Regarding your other point, yes there was one SRO in Florida whose P320 ND was traced to playing with a holstered pistol. That doesn’t mean it is an accepted practice.

I don’t know what you do for a living, but what ever it is, there are people in your profession with bad professional habits they should not engage in. Do you consider those “long standing traditions?”


Please go back and read again what I wrote. I was very clear on how there is nothing except a manual safety (if so equipped) to prevent the trigger on a P320 from being moved far enough rearward to fire the pistol.

Others have posted since my quoted post and provided the additional info you need.

You obviously have no sense of humor or grasp of scarcasm if you work in law enforcement and haven't been witness to multiple KD's, and the stupidity that caused them.


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Posts: 7026 | Location: Newyorkistan | Registered: March 28, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Why are P320s being accused of discharging by themselves and not other similar guns?

One extremely unlikely possibility is that they are indeed discharging on their own and others aren’t.

A far more likely possibility is, as I believe I’ve mentioned before, that claims beget claims due to the bandwagon effect.

Someone who claimed that a Glock had fired on its own without the trigger being pulled would be immediately hooted down by the legions of the guns’ fans. People regularly have unintentional discharges with Glocks, and have since their earliest adoption by LE agencies in this country, but no one would accept for a moment that they were due to a flaw in the guns’ design:

“Guddamnit, Jones: How the hell did you do that?”
“I don’t know, sarge; just got my finger on the trigger, I guess.”
“Well, you’re a dumb ass, and you’re getting three days off without pay.”
Versus,
“Guddamnit, Jones: What the hell happened?”
“I don’t know what happened, sarge; it just went off like those other ones we hear about.”
“Yeah, I’ve been reading other reports about those SIGs doing that. I told those people we should have just switched to Glocks rather than those unsafe pieces of shite!”

I’ve seen examples of that way of “thinking” my entire life, and there’s no reason to expect it to change in the future.




7/93
 
Posts: 45884 | Location: 10,150 Feet Above Sea Level in Colorado | Registered: April 04, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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^^^^^^^
Hey, why bring me into this? I said it just went off on its own??!!?? Big Grin




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Posts: 36096 | Location: Logical | Registered: September 12, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Originally posted by jljones:
^^^^^^^
Hey, why bring me into this?


Smith was off that day. Wink




7/93
 
Posts: 45884 | Location: 10,150 Feet Above Sea Level in Colorado | Registered: April 04, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Good alias.
 
Posts: 6650 | Registered: September 13, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Judge sides with SIG Sauer in accidental shooting lawsuit

A federal judge ruled in favor of gun manufacturer SIG Sauer in a lawsuit filed by a man who accidentally shot himself in the leg with the company's P320 pistol.

U.S. Judge Landya McCafferty said last week that the plaintiff, Kyle Guay, failed to prove that SIG Sauer was aware that it had sold the pistol in an unreasonably dangerous condition in December 2016. Guay, who said in the lawsuit that he has "substantial firearms experience," claimed he was removing his holster with the pistol secured in it "when the pistol fired and hit him in the right thigh without him ever touching the trigger," according to a report from American Military News.

Guay said he purchased the pistol after seeing a SIG Sauer advertisement promising "Safety Without Compromise" and boasting the P320 pistol "won’t fire unless you want it to," a claim he argued the company knew was false.

As evidence, Guy introduced bodycam video of an alleged misfire of a P320 pistol by Roscommon, Michigan Sheriff’s Department Officer Michael Richardson in February 2016. The video shows Richardson sitting in his cruiser on a highway before attempting to help a stranded motorist, with the officer having his holstered P320 pistol suddenly fire as he attempts to exit his vehicle.

Full Article on Fox News



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Posts: 15036 | Location: SF Bay Area | Registered: December 11, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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