quote:

Originally posted by SgtGold:
It looks like the striker doesn't engage the full 1mm height of the sear ....

I believe the striker lug does engage pretty much the full 1 mm height of the sear hook. The photo of the sear doesn’t show the rub mark on the hook face very well, but the rub mark below the hook face seems to indicate that the lug is in full contact with the surface before it reaches the hook and would therefore be bottomed out against the hook. The photo of the lug may be misleading because the flat surface at the front of the lug measures about 1.5 mm* and therefore its entire surface cannot contact the sear hook’s 1 mm.

The thing that might reduce the contact engagement is that the lug is slightly rounded where it contacts the sear.

* Perhaps a little less; again I have no way of making a precise measurement without disassembling everything which I didn’t feel like doing.

That's what I was thinking. If the engagement surfaces were perfectly parallel you would get lift as the sear dropped away, and that adds weight to the trigger pull. A slightly convex surface on one of the engagement surfaces allows the entire surface to stay in play while giving a slight roll to the trigger.

quote:

Originally posted by sigfreund:
The thing that might reduce the contact engagement is that the lug is slightly rounded where it contacts the sear.

* Perhaps a little less; again I have no way of making a precise measurement without disassembling everything which I didn’t feel like doing.

quote:

Originally posted by sigfreund:
The question about how much contact there was in the P320 firing mechanism to prevent the striker from being released without pulling the trigger piqued my interest.

The striker pin is held to the rear in the cocked position by the sear that engages the striker pin lug. When the trigger is pulled, the sear is rotated down and the striker released.

The first photo shows the primary engagement surface of the sear circled in yellow. After the Dykem was applied, the slide was put on the gun and the trigger pulled one time. By the rub mark below the sear hook it appears that the lug engages the full height of the sear hook. That seems to be confirmed by the mark on the striker pin lug in the second photo.

I have no way of precisely measuring the height of the sear hook, but using a small rule it’s a bit over 1 millimeter (~0.04"), or just as Bruce Gray reported.

The blue ellipse circles the second engagement hook of the sear that would capture the striker pin lug if it slipped off the primary hook.

Sear:



Front surface of striker pin lug that engages the sear:

Thanks for the info.

This complaint filed in the Circuit Court sheds new details on the Sig safety debacle. I know I'll never buy another SiG ever again. Denial and deception from a company is neither forgotten or forgiven.
https://www.smbb.com/wp-conten...t-Final-Northrop.pdf

quote:

Originally posted by Tordon:
This complaint filed in the Circuit Court sheds new details on the Sig safety debacle.

What "new details" do you think that filing sheds?

I didn't see anything there that enlightened me one bit; nothing new, and the same tired claims.

What do you think is enlighteing and earth shattering here, something new that is a game changer, that changes this from what it really is?

I read most of the complaint. They say the P250, P320 and P365 all use the same FCU.
Which is BS.
See pages 11 and 12. Lines 48 to 52.
And they describe the 250 as DA/SA, too.

The most interesting part of the complaint to me was the location. When a cop had his gun out of the holster for cleaning or whatever and it “just goes off” it’s easy to explain it away as a negligent discharge. But this was at a high school baseball game. It’s obviously not impossible that he was fingerfucking his gun but it’s a lot less likely they he was playing with it at that event.

Mostly I wonder if there are any witnesses that can back up his story of the gun still being holstered.

They're also directly claiming the gun went off while holstered. Examining the holster should allow whether this was the case to be easily determined. Also it would show if the holster completely covered the trigger. Gun in holster, and trigger covered vastly reduces the possibility that the officer directly actuated the trigger. But another question would be whether something got into the holster and trigger guard and pulled the trigger. We've seen that before.

quote:

Originally posted by Pale Horse:
The most interesting part of the complaint to me was the location. When a cop had his gun out of the holster for cleaning or whatever and it “just goes off” it’s easy to explain it away as a negligent discharge. But this was at a high school baseball game. It’s obviously not impossible that he was fingerfucking his gun but it’s a lot less likely they he was playing with it at that event.

Mostly I wonder if there are any witnesses that can back up his story of the gun still being holstered.

It may seem unlikely that an LEO would have an unintentional discharge at a place like a basketball game, but not necessarily.

When bored and having to stand around with nothing to do, I’ve seen officers essentially play with their handgun by undoing the retention device, pulling the pistol part way out, and dropping it back into the holster over and over. If someone were doing that and got to the point of putting finger on trigger as the first part of a draw, I can conceive of finally going too far and firing a round, especially if forgetting to remove one’s finger when dropping/pushing the gun back in. With only partial contact with the trigger, it’s also more likely with a gun that doesn’t have a central “safety” tab.

No, I’m not suggesting that it’s something all police officers do, and it’s less likely when someone like a supervisor might be around, but I have seen it.* It is also more likely if the officer is standing back away from where other people are. I am of course only speculating, but that could be an explanation.

* And if you spend time around LEOs and haven’t ever seen anything like that, congratulations to those officers for their professionalism.

quote:

Originally posted by sigfreund:

I know, and that’s why I said that it’s not impossible. But it’s a far cry from the guy who was alone in his house cleaning his gun too. And as I mentioned there is a higher probability of security cameras or witnesses at a high school baseball game.

To me all of that makes the case a little more interesting. It may turn out to be nothing at all too.

quote:

Originally posted by Pale Horse:
To me all of that makes the case a little more interesting.

I agree. Just offering other things to consider.

Wouldn't the inside of the holster show powder burns at the position of the muzzle? This would show if the pistol was partially withdrawn or fully holstered.

quote:

Originally posted by sigfreund:
It may seem unlikely that an LEO would have an unintentional discharge at a place like a basketball game, but not necessarily.

When bored and having to stand around with nothing to do, I’ve seen officers essentially play with their handgun by undoing the retention device, pulling the pistol part way out, and dropping it back into the holster over and over. If someone were doing that and got to the point of putting finger on trigger as the first part of a draw, I can conceive of finally going too far and firing a round, especially if forgetting to remove one’s finger when dropping/pushing the gun back in. With only partial contact with the trigger, it’s also more likely with a gun that doesn’t have a central “safety” tab.

No, I’m not suggesting that it’s something all police officers do, and it’s less likely when someone like a supervisor might be around, but I have seen it.* It is also more likely if the officer is standing back away from where other people are. I am of course only speculating, but that could be an explanation.

* And if you spend time around LEOs and haven’t ever seen anything like that, congratulations to those officers for their professionalism.

There was a prior ND by an Officer assigned to SRO duty in a school cafeteria. Officer swore the gun "just went off" in the holster without being touched. Surveillance video instead showed he was manipulating the gun and partially upholstering just as you described.

I could see an original design 320 discharging in the holster given a sufficient impact but the "it just went off by itself" story is dubious.

quote:

Originally posted by Tordon:
This complaint filed in the Circuit Court sheds new details on the Sig safety debacle. I know I'll never buy another SiG ever again. Denial and deception from a company is neither forgotten or forgiven.
https://www.smbb.com/wp-conten...t-Final-Northrop.pdf

Most of this is simply a copy and paste from the NH lawsuit (which involved an original design / not upgraded P320).

There is a lot of fluff but very little detail on Officer Northrups actual incident:

Was the gun an original design P320? An upgraded gun? or current production? What was the issued holster ? Did the gun have a WML attached ?

If it was an original, non upgraded gun, why?

What do I mean by fluff? For example:

quote:

In 2015, a Pennsylvania State Trooper and firearms instructor accidentally killed another trooper with his SIG Sauer while
conducting safety training.

This incident is completely irrelevant as it involved 1) A SIG P227 DA/SA pistol; and 2) The PSP FI in question intentionally pulled the trigger thinking the pistol unloaded.

What, exactly does that have to do with striker fired pistols allegedly having mechanical failures ?

It's worth noting SIG reaction to the original P320 issue, including the whole "It's an upgrade, not a recall" is directly copied from the Glock playbook. Many no longer recall but the original Glocks with black internals had ADs resulting from mechanical failures. Information distribution was much more restricted then. Glock was able to keep it quiet until they failed drop testing in DEA duty gun testing in the early 1990s. The result was Glock's "upgrade" to the silver colored internals which fixed the issue.

quote:

Originally posted by Tordon:
This complaint filed in the Circuit Court sheds new details on the Sig safety debacle. I know I'll never buy another SiG ever again. Denial and deception from a company is neither forgotten or forgiven.
https://www.smbb.com/wp-conten...t-Final-Northrop.pdf

If you read a complaint and take any of it as fact, you need to learn more about lawsuits.

I can file suit for just about anything I choose. I could make up a bunch of BS about you and file a complaint listing all of the stuff I made up. Doesn’t mean any of it is valid. Doesn’t mean it’s invalid either. It’s just my side of the story about why I’m owed damages.

I think you might be confusing a complaint with a ruling.

Well there are many facts in the complaint.

Specifically the voluntary "upgrade" instead of a recall is one of the thing that just might bite sig in the ass as far as the negligence accusation is concerned. pg27 of complaint

Always thought it was a bad/lazy move not to recall.

Sig has lied about lesser issues in the past, I wouldn't trust them on anything. Last I checked there were at least 10/11 suits against Sig for the 320 firing in the holster or when struck, including some "upgraded" guns. Sig won't get another penny from me.

Looks like there is another law suite. Black Hawk Serpa type holster, not exactly a good choice, but it does keep it locked.

But there it is anyways,

https://abcnews.go.com/US/dete...ed/story?id=79605906

Seems like an eventuality to mix an easy to activate trigger and a holster that incorporates a retention device that enters the trigger guard. Not the gun's fault, but these suits aren't really about safety; they're about getting $15 million.

quote:

Originally posted by Blackwater:
Looks like there is another lawsuit. Black Hawk Serpa type holster, not exactly a good choice, but it does keep it locked.

But there it is anyways,

https://abcnews.go.com/US/dete...ed/story?id=79605906

My money is something was in the trigger guard.

By her own pic, you can see that the Serpa doesn't fully cover the trigger guard.


Customer pics from Amazon:

quote:

"Hilton disputes that, saying the gun was holstered in her purse and that it would be near impossible for something to wedge inside the holster and be enough to pull the trigger."

Riiiiiiight....banging around in your purse with your keys and Lord knows what else....but sure - near impossible.

One more reason why Serpas suck.

quote:

If you read a complaint and take any of it as fact, you need to learn more about lawsuits.

I can file suit for just about anything I choose. I could make up a bunch of BS about you and file a complaint listing all of the stuff I made up. Doesn’t mean any of it is valid. Doesn’t mean it’s invalid either. It’s just my side of the story about why I’m owed damages.

Yep - 100%
Almost said "Clearly someone has never read a lawsuit before" LOL