I recently got back from a trip to Alaska, and while we didn't get deep into the backcountry at all, we did a good ammount of hiking. I took along my S&W Model 69 2 3/4" in .44Mag. Before we left I did some pretty extensive practice with it and felt pretty confident out to about 25 yards, but thankfully we never had occasion to use it on the trip. We didn't have any close bear encouners, but we did end up closer than desirable to a couple of moose. Thankfully everybody kept their head, and the moose were amicable, but those are some big powerful critters (ain't no Indiana whitetail, that's for sure!), and I wouldn't want to piss one off!

I saw a wide variety of stuff being carried while we were up there. The locals in the more remote places who were really serious about bear protection had slung shotguns. There was a guy on our rafting trip with a 10mm P220 in a chest rig. I also saw one (presumably tourist) walking around downtown Talkeetna with some kind of polymer striker gun in a nylon and velcro holster hanging off the small of his back with his shirt tucked in behind it .

On one of our more significant hikes, we were told that a couple of guys from the camp had encountered a couple of Grizzlies where we were headed a few years back. It depends who was telling the story how the interaction began, but all of them ended with the two guys unloading a .454 revolver and a 9mm semi-auto into one of the bears, and then having to reload and utlimately stopping it with a 9mm round through the eye socket. On our hike (more details here: https://sigforum.com/eve/forum...935/m/7390020484/p/5), a guy from the camp went with us to guide, but he actually lives in the lower 48 so he didn't have his own gun. One of the full-time guys gave him a Taurus Tracker in .44 Mag to take along. As we were starting down the trail he said something about needing to make sure he actually knew how the gun worked, which made me kind of glad I had my own !

While I like my Model 69, 5 shots isn't many, and it's admittedly not the easiest thing to hit with especially under adverse conditions. The camp bear story also made me think that capacity might be more of a benefit than I thought. This got me thinking about semi-auto options. I know 10mm isn't quite .44 Mag, but it gives you better shootability, more capacity, and faster reloads, and with the right ammunition can provide adequate penetration. The problem is, nobody makes the 10mm that I want. I don't particularly like Glocks, and their 10mm variants are giant bricks. The reloader in me also hates what the do to brass and their aversion to cast bullets. Sig seems content to only offer the massive full-size version of the X-Ten, or really expensive and heavy boutique versions of the P220 in 10mm. The M&P 10mm I shot didn't impress me, and after 2000Z-71's experiences that he's shared here, I'm even less inclined to get one. The Springfield XD is well, a Springfield XD...enough said. 1911s are expensive, SAO, and heavy. Third-gen Smiths are also heavy, expensive, and unobtanium. I want something smaller, reasonably lightweight, reliable, and shootable.

I got to looking around the internet, and it led me here: https://www.buffalobore.com/in...l=product_list&c=161. While I wouldn't want to shoot this stuff through my folded-slide P245, I recently picked up a P220 Compact which has a milled stainless slide. Would this hard-cast .45 load provide comparable (or at least adequate) penetration to a 10mm while vastly increasing the available handgun platforms to deliver it with? Could it even work out of a gun that I already own, like, and am proficient with? Any concerns about shooting this stuff through an alloy-framed P220? I wouldn't be feeding it a steady diet of the stuff...just enough to make sure it feeds and hits to point of aim, plus a bit for practice before trips to make sure I'm prepared for any recoil management issues. If not the P220, there are other appealing options out there that are avilable in .45 but not 10mm, like the Beretta PX4, P250, a variety of affordable 3rd gen Smiths, or the P320 Compact.

Also, does anybody know where to find load data for such a thing? None of my manuals show anything for .45 ACP +P, but I already have 255gr RNFP bullets on hand for .45 Colt, and it would be nice to cook up some trial rounds before paying Buffalo Bore their sorta insane prices. I loaded up a few dummies and seated them to the crimp grove and they feed just fine manually in the P220, and even fit in the dimpled mags...but a huge portion of the case is filled by the bullet, and that leaves me concerned about pressure. There are times when there's a wide margin for error where I'm willing to kinda go off on my own with reloading, but if I'm going to try this I'd really like some vetted, published data. Also, would one expect better results from a 255gr bullet like Buffalo-Bore is using, or would a hard-cast 230 be a better solution?

I don't have any trips planned in the immediate future, so it's not a pressing question...but the thoughts are bouncing around in my head and I figured I'd see if anybody here had experience or input on the concept.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: 92fstech,

this may or maynot be helpful,

I picked up an estate a few years ago with a pile or reloading stuff,

in that pile was a few boxes of handloaded 45ACP with a heavier bullet,
not round like 230 gr, but cast lead in the 250ish range, (flat point, and like a rounded SWC on the sde with an no shoulder at the case mouth,

I have no idea what, why etc this was loaded, there were no notes I could find in the boxes, nor notes from the gent who had passed,

unfortunately, I did not save any of the data I could have when I pulled them, nor did I try one to see if it would work in a 1911 or 220 etc (feed, would not dare shoot one)


all that to say, will a 255 for a LC work in an ACP, and IIRC, both are not the same diameter,



alternative thinking, if you stick with a wheel gun, a N frame in 41 or 44 will give you 6 vs 5,

or maybe a Deagle (desert Eagle) tho they are heavy as fuk

quote:

all that to say, will a 255 for a LC work in an ACP, and IIRC, both are not the same diameter,

Mine are sized .452, same as my .45 ACP. My LC guns are a Ruger New Model Blackhawk and a Marlin 1894, and both seem completely happy with that sizing. Worst case, I have a .452 sizing die.

I don’t much about this but if I couldn’t have a rifle or shotgun with serious slugs I think a Glock 20 with 16 rounds of SERIOUS 10mm starts looking mighty good even though I am not a 10mm guy or really a Glockophile.

What about .45 Super? I know you can run the bigger HK’s with .45 super (may need some tweaks) and .45 Super is a pretty damn stout handgun cartridge although I don’t think it can match 10mm.

I don’t know much about grizzly’s but most bears are a lot like me, they just want to be left alone and will give you a wide birth.

Just for grins and giggles looked up Underwood for their .45 ACP +P loads. Surprisingly, the ballistics are way less than I expected; 255gr @ 925fps = 485 ftlbs.

https://underwoodammo.com/45-a...hard-cast-flat-nose/

Couple of guys I know who carry 1911's have gone to 45 Super or 460 Roland which offer a lot better ballistics than a .45ACP. When you start comparing .45ACP to 10mm with 700ftlbs or .44 Mag with 1150ftlbs it doesn't give me a warm fuzzy feeling for woods carry. The argument of 10mm in favor of .44 magnum for bear protection usually concludes with, "Yes 10mm only has half the energy but it has twice the number of rounds..." With a .45 ACP, you've got a third of the energy and only 2 more rounds.

I usually carry a Smith 329 loaded with 260gr hard cast or a Smith 629 Mountain Gun loaded with Underwood's 220gr Xtreme Penetrators. The recoil on the 329 is brutal, I practice with my old cowboy handholds that are a 240gr hard cast at approx. 900fps which are easy to shoot through it. The 329 also has the sticky extraction problem, some loads just will not extract without manually punching them out individually from the chamber face of the cylinder. The Grizzly 260gr hard cast loads extracts without issue. My 629 Mountain Gun is relatively lightweight and the 220gr Xtreme penetrator load is a lot less felt recoil and more controllable than 305gr. hard cast loads with similar energy.

As far as the Sig X Ten, yes, it's big and heavy but I absolutely love it. About the same size as the Glock 20. Mine carries great openly in a chest holster. Concealed on a belt is a little harder to get away with. I have Mernickle making me a cross draw holster for it that hopefully works as well as the 4" N-Frame that he made for me. Another option is the Ruger GP100 in 10mm, I've got a 3" that I absolutely love. But then that's going to be similar in size and weight to the Smith 69 that you already have.

Funny you posted this because I'm thinking I, "Need" to get a snubby Smith 69 or a Ruger Alaskan. I do quite a bit of hiking and photography on trails close to Anchorage. At times it's just easier to carry concealed and not have to deal with the Karens of the world. While I've got the 329 and 629, they're both 4" barrel N-frames, I keep thinking a big bore snubby might be the way to go.

As far as the Smith M&P, my Apex extractor showed up today, we'll see if that fixes the problem...

I got rid of my G20 woods gun and now carry a Ruger Blackhawk Convertible .45LC/45ACP. The woods carry load is Underwood 45LC 250gr+P at 1400 FPS and 1088 Foot Pounds of energy. Its a stout load that is pretty close to .44 Magnum. Needless to say, I dont shoot this load much. Underwood has 45ACP+P loads that are pretty stout and I have one of their loads that uses a Nosler JHP 185gr bullet at 1200 FPS and 592 Foot Pounds. Might be a little hard on an auto pistol but in the Ruger its fine. Underwood also has an "Extreme Penetrator" load with a solid copper slug for the .45ACP, too. I have not shot it.
I am comfortable with either of the Underwood loads in the woods. We have Moose here but no Grizzlies so my needs are less than Alaskan. The main advantage of the Ruger with convertible cylinder is I can practice and plink with cheap ammo and save the high $$$ dollar stuff for the woods.
Given you already own a very capable .44 Smith, I dont think I would dump it in favor of .45ACP. I would try out various types of high performance .44 ammo to see what works best for the gun.

Yeah, the Model 69 won't be going anywhere. I really like it. I also have a Blackhawk Convertible in .45 ACP/Colt as well...awesome gun that I've used backpacking in Wyoming before I got the lighter 69. I'm not really looking to replace anything...just considering other options.

A few viable options you overlooked are:

SIG P320-XTen
Tanfoglio 10mm
Rock Island Armory 10mm in single or double stack

And try not to laugh, but... Hi-Point JXP10.

quote:

Originally posted by iron chef:
A few viable options you overlooked are:

SIG P320-XTen
Tanfoglio 10mm
Rock Island Armory 10mm in single or double stack

And try not to laugh, but... Hi-Point JXP10.

Yeah, I know there are others (and I did list the X-Ten in my OP...don't really want a striker gun, and Sig also doesn't seem to care that people might be interested in something other than a massive full-size pistol in that caliber).

The point isn't to find a 10mm but to determine if I could do something similar with guns in a caliber that I already own. Basically, would a heavy hard-cast bullet out of a .45 provide close enough performance to a 10mm to be a viable alternative?

quote:

"Yes 10mm only has half the energy but it has twice the number of rounds..." With a .45 ACP, you've got a third of the energy and only 2 more rounds.

When you put it that way the discussion does seem pretty silly. The P220 compact only gives me 2 rounds more than my 69, although it does offer faster reloads.

The energy discussion is interesting...IMO with pistol rounds energy is only important to the point that it's providing penetration. The goal is to push the bullet hard enough to reach and make holes in the vital organs...anything beyond that is pretty much wasted. But anything less than that is going to be completely innefective, so at what point are you taking chances with not having enough?

Honestly, I'd probably be best-served to just purchase some additional holster options for my 69, and maybe another .44 with a longer barrel for times when I don't have to worry about concealment (I still really like the idea of the 329). If I lived in the places that I use these things it would be easier, but the problem that I run into when travelling is I don't always have a good option for securing a gun I'm not actively carrying, so I'm pretty much limited to taking only one. As such, I'm always doing mental gymnastics trying to figure out the most versatile option. It is easy to take a variety of ammo...on this last trip I brought some "light magnum" hollow-points for in-town, and some heavy flat-point stuff for the trail.

Nothing wrong with the Model 69. Like I said, I've been toying with the idea of picking one up. As far as just pure shooting fun, I've got a 5" full lug barrel 629 Classic that I absolutely love.

I would forget about 45ACP

Myself I would be carrying full power 10MM FMJ in my M&P or one of my other 10MM auto loaders. That makes for easy over the counter ammo


Or I would be running FMJ 45SUPER in a full size USP



I have gone through 10s of thousands or rounds of the 45SUPER over the decades and have full confidence in the cartridge

Since the USP carries 14 rounds in the flush magazine vs. 15 rounds in the M&P with both rounds being comparable in energy, I think I would be carrying the bigger bore pistol

I’m in the camp of, if needing/wanting ‘real’ stopping power one should have a rifle. Of course that’s not practical in many instances.

Then you have location, are we in or around Yellowstone or AK? If not the chances of an adverse encounter drop way off.

Of course if doing the woods hike, or more, most gun guy/gal wants to carry something. For me stepping up the ammo some with a more normal CC gun is a partial compromise. I think more common threats are a higher probability than an aggressive bear.

I like some of the Lehigh Defense options, which I load myself.

I wish I had the means to do some penetration testing on some of these loads to see what I e could realistically expect out of them. A few years back I made up some gel to test a variety of bullets, but I don't really have the capacity to make enough gel to test truly deep penetrators. Plus making the stuff is a huge pain in the butt.

I'm actually even curious to see what a .44 mag will do out of the 2 3/4" barrel of my 69.

I'm also looking at alternative options for a Big Bear gun, primarily for my wife, who has tiny bird hands. 10mm and 44 aren't really options for her.

Given what's available now, I would (and do) go for one of the many monolithic copper-alloy options, which give up less in velocity/energy vs the hard cast slugs. These bullets from G9 penetrate like crazy and carry a bit more energy in a .45 than other options.

For now, given the unlikelihood of stumbling across a pissed-off griz in my neck of the woods, I think I'll stoke my Gen 5 G19 with the 124 gr 9mm variant and have the wife carry that in a Kenai. It ain't the world's greatest bear gun but it's better than nothing. I'm more worried about kitties, anyway.

This is a very long thread, but may be relevant to you - USP 45 Field Pistol

^ Thanks for that. It's an interesting read and I'd not come across it in my own research. That's a lot of pages...gonna take a while to dig through, but hopefully some good info in there.

A guy I was in the CG with does the whole trout fishing in obscure locales thing. He carrys a 1911 (the only gun he owns) in a chest holster and has it set up for 45 Super. But he had someone load hardcast rounds for him.

But for Matt it’s a simple problem. He only has the one gun, it’s legal in CA and only uses ball ammo for bears.

We’re it me, I’d carry my M69 with underwood or BuffaloBore ammo and leave the 1911 at camp for social work.

But your question was 10 v 45+P. I’d use a Glock in 10mm, more ammo than a 45. But I’m not buying a new gun when my M69 will work.

A sort of hijack but I have always wondered what the attraction to cast bullets was as opposed to full metal jacket. I certainly understand the concept of a sharp shouldered flat point, but if penetration of ball vs “hard cast” is similar what makes cast better?

quote:

Originally posted by captain127:
A sort of hijack but I have always wondered what the attraction to cast bullets was as opposed to full metal jacket. I certainly understand the concept of a sharp shouldered flat point, but if penetration of ball vs “hard cast” is similar what makes cast better?

Hard cast tends to hold its shape very well even against bone strikes. Soft lead FMJ hitting that same rib will most likely deform and possibly fragment as a result of the strike, potentially limiting its effectiveness at damaging tissue and organs with a large wound cavity once it gets past the hard stuff.

As for going with .45+P vs 10mm; I'll choose 10mm. It carries considerably more velocity with potent energy for the projectile. Around here 10mm has become the de facto standard for the usual four-legged threats, particularly black bear.

However a customer of ours dispatched a smaller black bear (based on a photo of the bear that I saw) a while back with a single shot of hard cast from his .45 1911, but a coworker that happened to be with him called it more of a lucky shot than actual effective penetration. The bullet apparently missed ribs and cartilage before finding the bear's vitals. According to my coworker, upon being hit the bear turned to run but collapsed with 20-25 feet, and died shortly afterward. I don't know if the load was +P, but at least .45ACP worked in this particular case.

quote:

Originally posted by captain127:
A sort of hijack but I have always wondered what the attraction to cast bullets was as opposed to full metal jacket. I certainly understand the concept of a sharp shouldered flat point, but if penetration of ball vs “hard cast” is similar what makes cast better?

Hard cast uses a much harder alloy that the typical lead core of an FMJ round, which is usually very soft lead inside the copper jacket. The BHN numbers I've seen quoted for jacketed bullet cores are between 7 and 12 BHN. Hard Cast bullets would be 20-25 BHN.