I wonder how a monolithic solid copper would compare to a hard cast bullet.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Nontypical,

I have had good luck with heavy hard cast loads in my .45 ACP. This is a link to an overview article. Handloading magazine also ran a feature on this topic a few years ago.

https://gunsmagazine.com/ammo/...g-the-45-acp-part-2/

When carrying an auto in Griz country (my backyard), I have no reservations about .45 ACP (255grain hardcast) or a 10mm

quote:

Originally posted by Nontypical:
I wonder how a monolithic solid copper would compare to a hard cast bullet. Underwood Ammo has a 357Sig round that leaves the barrel at 2100fps and 637ft/lbs.

I think they tend to be pretty good penetrators and hold together well, but copper is less dense than lead, so you need a longer bullet for a given diameter to achieve the same mass...which leaves less room in the case for powder.

10mm worth considering is the Ruger 1911. I carry OWB. Alternate carry, if carrying a backpack, is a Glock 29SF in a chest rig. It's out of the way of the straps and can be yanked out quickly. Don't care for the Glock trigger and shoot the 1911 noticeably better.

Random video in my feed, sure
He mentions Lehi Defense that was recently bought by Wilson Combat.

Thanks for explaining the hard cast thing.

I personally wouldn't recommend any autoloader vs a bear over a revolver, unless its a black bear and if you can't scare those away with noise IDK what to tell you. (never had one attack me they all run, course if you run up on a mama then good luck)

Seriously bear country bring a 300 mag rifle or a 12 gauge.

Reason for no semi-auto vs a grizzly?

I've talked to fed forestry service agents and their argument is "when a bear is on top of you, good luck aiming forward with a gun".

i.e at best you'll be able to shoot it on the side of its head while its mauling you and an autoloader (Glock 20 etc) could easily "limp wrist" etc, which happened apparently.

I learned that from a forest service shooting instructor so I'd definitely go with that advice over any kind of semi-auto.

My old lawyer friend who used to go to Alaska brought a 44 magnum as a backup to his rifle, after meeting and killing a grizzly (it took handgun and rifle) he went to 454 Casull as his backup.

^^^^^
All well and good except for national parks. A long gun may also be slower to deploy depending on how you are carrying it and what you are doing.

Finally a bolt action which is what 99% of 300 mags are is one and done and then Mr. Bear is there. Last choice IMO. I'd carry a 45-70 over the 300 mag as its smaller, easier to deploy, and faster to shoot if you want a rifle.

Living in Chicago I don't have much contact with Grizzly bears but can offer some info on several of the handguns suggested.
I have and shoot a Freedom Arms revolver chambered in 454 Casull, it is Magnaported with a 7 1/2" barrel.I also have a 460 S&W with a 8"barrel and factory muzzle brake and a Dan Wesson 445 SuperMag with multiple barrel choices from 10" to 2", 44mags are like 45acp recoil with this gun.
If 454 Casull or 460 S&W was my choice I would pick the 460 S&W. The recoil even out of the heavy Freedom Arms revolver is fast and violent, the recoil out of the 460 is a more manageable push, think 45ACP vs a 40cal.A follow up shot might be possible with the 460S&W.
If I wanted to go with a shorter barrel I would probably go with a loaded down 445 Supermag or a hot 44mag in a 6"barrel mounted to the Dan Wesson frame.

I have shot light weight 44 mag revolvers and find them uncomfortable to shoot,I also share this opinion when shooting light weight plastic revolvers chambered in 357mag. I see a 454 Casull in a short barrel revolver and think NO WAY,maybe one shot, and I would hope that shot was magic.
I would have to go with a short 18" pump action, 3" chamber 12 gauge with a 1 1/4 once slug and a full stock. I would think I could deploy the 12 gauge on a sling faster than trying to draw a holstered and retained handgun strapped someplace on my body, probably in a position I'm not used to drawing from in a high stress situation.

Other than Grizzly Bears I would find my Sig P220ST a good firearm to have for all other situations loaded with a 45acp+P with a heavy hard cast load.

Assuming you could find one, a Ruger 480 loaded with Buffalo Bore would seem to be a good alternative.

There's a lot of info to digest about the topic of guns for bear defense. I've recently gone down the same rabbit hole about the .45 and come to the conclusion that it's not a viable alternative.

It has less energy, less penetration, and fewer rounds than a 10mm, even with boutique.45 loads. The numbers just don't compare.

As to a 10mm vs revolver, The advantages to a semi-auto are that it provides more chances to hit the bears CNS, and that follow up shots are more accurate and faster. Anyone who thinks that they can "knock down" a bear with a body shot from ANY handgun has seen Dirty Harry too many times. These things are massive. In my opinion, going bigger in revolvers (454, .460, .500S&W) is counter productive.

I live in Fairbanks, AK and the standard woods gun here is a Glock 20. I was never a Glock guy (honestly I'm still not) but it's hard to argue with the capacity and track record. I broke down and bought one and immediately shot it significantly better than my .44 mag.

I love my SIGs, and wish there was a P227 10mm. In the absence of that, the Glock 20 fills the role. I wouldn't try to shoe-horn the .45 into a role it can't fulfil. Buy a 10mm and practice with it.

If I really thought I might have to shoot a bear in self defense, it would be at least a .44 mag, if not a .460 or .500, although those guns are clownishly big. For that matter, you'd have to consider a 12 gauge slug or .45-70, but certainly no less than a .44 mag.

I wouldn't consider a .45 at all, and probably not a 10mm.

quote:

Originally posted by jhe888:
If I really thought I might have to shoot a bear in self defense, it would be at least a .44 mag, if not a .460 or .500, although those guns are clownishly big. For that matter, you'd have to consider a 12 gauge slug or .45-70, but certainly no less than a .44 mag.

I wouldn't consider a .45 at all, and probably not a 10mm.

Have you shot any of those big-bores? If so, how was your accuracy firing rapidly in double action? How many rounds could you get on target in 2-3 seconds? No doubt they're powerful, but accuracy (with adequate penetration) stops fights.

It's easier to get more rounds into a smaller target much faster with a 10mm. I'd estimate that people up here choose one over a wheel gun by at least 2:1.

Recommendations for a long gun are all well and good, BUT will you actually carry it 100% of the time? The one time you decide that "I'm not going far, so need to lug this boat anchor around!" Is the time you'll have a problem.

Here's a link to an article about a hiker using a .45acp to defend himself against a bear in Denali National Park. Bear died, hikers not injuried.....45acp

quote:

...The advantages to a semi-auto are that it provides more chances to hit the bears CNS, and that follow up shots are more accurate and faster. Anyone who thinks that they can "knock down" a bear with a body shot from ANY handgun has seen Dirty Harry too many times.

This is the whole reason for my original question right here. You're not going to stop a bear through exsanguination, at least not quickly enough to do you any good. Just like with a human assailant you're going to need to make vital hits to stop the threat. The difference is that a bear's vitals are protected either by a very thick skull, or literally feet of fat and muscle, so a round designed to stop before exiting a human body likely won't provide enough penetration to even reach the vital organs of a large bear...which is why we use hard-cast or mono-metal instead of JHP in a woods gun.

The question is, how much penetration is needed? With people, the FBI recommends 12-18" of penetration in gel. But how much is a reasonable amount for a bear? Clearly, the general consensus is that the 10mm provides enough, but what's the actual number that we're wanting to achieve? It seems to me that any cartridge that can make a hole deep enough to hit the vitals would be adequate, although some may offer additional advantages (like capacity) over others.

I'm also curious about barrel length and its effect on penetration. I've been carrying a 2 3/4" .44 Magnum, but I'll admit I've never done any penetration testing with it. For all I know, I may be getting less than I would with 10mm out of a 5" Glock 20. I'd love to do some testing myself, but I'd have to get ahold of a 10mm and some type of consistent media to actually compare them in. I'd like to see how the buffalo bore .45+p load stacks up to my .44 snubby or a full-size 10mm.

quote:

Originally posted by OnyxShooter:
This is a very long thread, but may be relevant to you - USP 45 Field Pistol

The gent that authored that thread, while he still occasionally carries a .45Super loaded USP but he has looked at other choices. In fact he has another thread on his current choice, the Gen 5 Glock 22 and 23. His thought process is that penetration, after placement is the rule. .40 FMJs and hardcast will bury themselves deep, often in the 32-36" ballpark. He can swap out magazines with people ammo easily should he go into towns. The Glock Gen 5s 22/23 can come optic ready. The Gen 5 Glock in .40S&W is what Glock should have made all along, but note they dont always fit in previous generation holsters because of the slide.


By the way other guns that I know of that can shoot .45Super would be S&W 4506/66, Ruger P90/97, HK45

^ You can muddy the waters with the .45 Super and the 460 Rowland.

quote:

40 FMJs and hardcast will bury themselves deep, often in the 32-36" ballpark.

quote:

His thought process is that penetration, after placement is the rule. .40 FMJs and hardcast will bury themselves deep, often in the 32-36" ballpark.

That's interesting...and those are the types of numbers I'm looking for. I've long had the theory that hard-cast .40 can't be all that far behind 10mm for practical effectiveness...and I do already own a .40 (P229) although I don't spend a lot of time with that cartridge. I took it along last time we went camping in Utah, though, as I figured it had some advantage over a 9mm should I need to use it.

I really need to find some kind of acceptable media and do some testing. I played around with homemade gel a number of years ago, but it was kind of a PITA and sort of expensive. And for something like this I would need a LOT. I don't necessarily need scientific perfection...I just want to get a general idea of what I can expect out of a given load and barrel length. Maybe I need to get my wife to start saving milk jugs...

I've really been wanting to put this to the test, so I've had my wife saving plastic milk jugs and other containers for the past month or so. I realize that those aren't exactly 1:1 with a real meat target, or ballistics gel, but it's what I've got. I still haven't gotten around to ordering any of the fancy boutique ammo, either, as I've had other stuff to spend my gun budget on, but the pile of jugs was getting annoying in the garage and I figured I could at least try and get a benchmark with ammo that I've currently got.

I filled everything up with water and went to the range today. The "testing protocol" involved a column of water bottles, with a 3/4" hardwood plywoood board between the first and second one. After I got to the range I realized that I should have brought some denim to simulate hide. I fished around in my truck toolbox and found an old pair of underwear that I'd been using as an oil rag. I folded that over into 4 layers and hung it off the bottle at the front.




The rounds I tested are both handloads.




The first is a 240Gr JSP .44 Magnum out of my S&W Model 69 with 2 3/4" barrel. These have chronographed at around 1158 fps out of that gun.



The second is a 230Gr home-cast and powdercoated truncated cone bullet that I cast myself using scrap lead...mostly range pickup and some wheel weights. It's definitely not "hard-cast" by any means. I shot this one out of my P220 Compact (3.9" barrel). It's not a +P load, and I've not chronographed this specific bullet, but it ought to be around 850fps according to my other data. I probably need to go out and do that out of this exact gun, just so I have accurate info.


I shot the .44 first, and it penetrated 43" and was caught by a jug. The bullet flattened a bit, but wasn't severely deformed.



I shot the .45 second, and it penetrated 41" before diverting out the bottom of one of the jugs. It creased the next jug and then continued somewhere into the berm, where I couldn't find it.




I'm going to keep collecting milk jugs because I want to try it again, and hopefully capture the .45. Maybe by then I’ll be able to get my hands on some of the fancy ammo, too. But the initial findings at least seem to indicate that there's not much difference in penetration between the .44 out of a snubby barrel compared to the “compact” .45 ACP with non-expanding bullets.

The real advantage of a semi-auto is that you can mount a weaponlight to them. Not a big deal if you’re day hiking, but most outdoorsman are out before daylight.