quote:

Originally posted by sourdough44:
I think one should put the Lehigh Defense offerings into the mix when it comes to max performance. One can load themselves or buy loaded ammo.

There may not be a bunch of real world uses yet, but testing is somewhat impressive. Most are basically a lighter copper bullet, no need to mushroom.

I have a variety of solid copper stuff that I carry in 9mm, 10mm, .357, and .45. My wife's woods gun is my Gen 5 G19 full of G9 copper solids, because it's what she can shoot effectively. Not the world's best bear gun but should be adequate for kitties.

For a hunting sidearm in my state, we're allowed to carry any projectile that is "designed by its manufacturer to create a large wound channel larger than the bullet's diameter." So, no hard cast lead if you have any intention of shooting a game animal with it. For that reason, I will be arming myself with either my G40 MOS or my Freedom Arms .357 loaded with either Lehighs or G9s as we get into big game/trophy game seasons here.

Going back to the original post. a 255-grain hard-cast lead bullet out of a Sig P220 is going to be one helluva pistol to control in rapid fire. Try shooting a full magazine of 230-grain +P from a draw into a 3-in circle at seven yards in under two or three seconds. Hitting a charging bear in the brain pan won't be easy. A 100-percent steel .45 with a five-inch barrel would probably be a tad easier to control and make hits.

It seems like some will carry a 10mm up in Alaska. Talk to the locals. Hard-cast lead does penetrate bone well. 10mm cast lead stuff generates nearly 300 foot pounds of energy more than a .45 ACP. FMJ bullets sometimes slide off a skull plate of a horse or cow in .45 ACP. (I've not tackled a bear with one, PTL!) The lead seems to drill in even if hit at an angle. Conventional hollow points sometimes break up on the bone and don't penetrate.

quote:

Originally posted by somerled:
Going back to the original post. a 255-grain hard-cast lead bullet out of a Sig P220 is going to be one helluva pistol to control in rapid fire. Try shooting a full magazine of 230-grain +P from a draw into a 3-in circle at seven yards in under two or three seconds. Hitting a charging bear in the brain pan won't be easy. A 100-percent steel .45 with a five-inch barrel would probably be a tad easier to control and make hits.

It seems like some will carry a 10mm up in Alaska. Talk to the locals. Hard-cast lead does penetrate bone well. 10mm cast lead stuff generates nearly 300 foot pounds of energy more than a .45 ACP. FMJ bullets sometimes slide off a skull plate of a horse or cow in .45 ACP. (I've not tackled a bear with one, PTL!) The lead seems to drill in even if hit at an angle. Conventional hollow points sometimes break up on the bone and don't penetrate.

I didn't think the 255gr Underwoods were that bad on the recoil out of my P220 Compact. I'm positive I could deliver 6 or 7 rounds accurately and faster out of it than I could out of my big-bore magnum revolvers.

Bullet profile and construction definitely matters. That wide, flat meplat on a SWC or cast flat point cuts through stuff without glancing off. On the downside, those profiles don't always feed as reliably in the semi-autos, which is one of the arguments for a revolver.

Used up another batch of Milk jugs today.



First was the 155gr Underwood .44 Mag load out of the 16" Marlin 1894. This chronographed at 1584fps out of the rifle, so about 300fps faster than the revolvers. Interestingly it didn't penetrate as far. Not sure if maybe it was just an anomaly since I'm working with a sample size of one shot per firearm, or if it was becasue the bullet's nose deformed more at the higher impact velocity so it slowed down faster. The gas check separated at the first jug behind the board, and I recovered the bullet at 48 inches.

Unfortunately, I'm going to have to start over with the .44 testing because Underwood discontinued the 255gr Keith Hard Cast that I was testing, and I don't have any more .

The next bullet I tested was the Buffalo Bore 158gr Outdoorsman load. I shot this (and the other .38s) out of an S&W 642-2 with 1 7/8" barrel. They chronograph at 1050fps out of this gun. It penetrated to 32", but it must have tumbled on impact, because while the .44s just punched right through the board, this one tore the hell out of the backside (the gaping hole at the top left, compared to the other holes that are .44s and .45s). I was pretty impressed with this one for a .38 Spcl load out of a snubby.




This revolver hits to point of aim with 110gr bullets, so I decided to try a couple of loads with those as well. The first load was a 110gr Hornady Critical Defense .38 Special (non +p) load. It chronographs at 785fps out of this gun. This stuff sucks. I realize its not intended to be a heavy penetrating load, but its performance was horrible. It made it though the denim and the first jug and then embedded itself in the board. I'd never consider using this as a woods load, but after seeing this I wouldn't even use it for people. Overall penetration was 6".




The last load I tested was my own 110gr XTP .38 Special +P Handload. I'm using Power Pistol which is kinda flashy but consistent, and pushes these at 952fps out of the snubby. I got 18" with these, which I'm ok with for their intended use.

Final results to-date:

Underwood 255gr .45 ACP +P out of P220 Compact at 903fps: 53"
Underwood 255Gr SWC .44 Mag out of 2 3/4" S&W Model 69 at 1177 fps: 65"
Underwood 255Gr SWC .44 Mag out of 4.1" S&W Model 329PD at 1274 fps: 64"
Underwood 255Gr SWC .44 Mag out of 16" Marlin 1894 at 1584 fps: 48"
Buffalo Bore 158gr SWC .38 +P out of 1 7/8" S&W 642 at 1050fps: 32"
Hornady 110gr Critical Defense out of 1 7/8" S&W 642 at 785 fps: 6"
Hornady 110gr XTP Handload out of 1 7/8" S&W 642 at 952 fps: 18"


Oh, and penetration aside, the difference in energy delivery between the .38 and .44 is pretty spectacular. The .38 puches holes, or maybe splits the jug a bit. The .44 does this:

Nice day, no work, more milk jugs...we're back to this again.

I know I started this looking for a viable alternative to a 10mm, and I still don't have one, so I decided to try a .40.

I also decided to try a wadcutter target load, because I've heard that they can be pretty impressive due to the bullet shape. I brought along 3 guns for that....642 with a 1 7/8" barrel, a Model 60 with a 3" barrel, and a Model 66 with a 4" barrel.

Finally, I shot it with an HST, just to see how a typical anti-personnel defensive load stacks up to our test criteria.

Results were as follows:

180gr .40 S&W Hard Cast out of a P229 at 1088fps: 33"

148gr Wadcutter out of a S&W 642 (1 7/8") at 741fps: 7" (Penetrated denim, first jug, and board but bounced off the second jug)

148gr Wadcutter out of a S&W 60 (3") at 797fps: 12"

148gr Wadcutter out of a S&W 66 (4") at 864fps: 28"

Federal HST 124gr out of a P320 Compact at 1066fps: 6" It penetrated the denim and the first jug but embedded itself in the board.

I thought the HST was an interesting benchmark. Obviously it's not designed for massive penetration, and it's documented to be a very capable defensive round. But if it's only getting to the board in this test, the performance of the deeper penetrators in this test is pretty impressive.

A few photos:

148gr Wadcutter out of the 642...went through the board and bounced off the second jug.



HST turned sideways and embedded in the plywood:



Recovered bullets, left to right: HST, Model 66 Wadcutter, Model 60 Wadcutter, 642 Wadcutter, .40 S&W. It appears the wadcutters deformed a bit more the faster they were going, and the extra ~65fps from the 4" tube made a significant difference in the target.

quote:

Originally posted by somerled:
Going back to the original post. a 255-grain hard-cast lead bullet out of a Sig P220 is going to be one helluva pistol to control in rapid fire. Try shooting a full magazine of 230-grain +P from a draw into a 3-in circle at seven yards in under two or three seconds. Hitting a charging bear in the brain pan won't be easy. A 100-percent steel .45 with a five-inch barrel would probably be a tad easier to control and make hits.

I admit to having zero experience shooting at a charging bear in the brain pan

However I have found the need to defend my life with my issued SIG P220. Our issue ammunition was federal Hydrashock, 45ACP 230 grain +P.

I turned behind a shopping center one evening to see what a van was doing there. The two youts began shooting as soon as they say me. I hunkered down right away. Not sure how I drew my sidearm, but I did put four rounds of ammunition through the windshield of my Dodge K car leathly striking each of the perpetrators. I could not tell you what the time frame was, it seemed incredibly long but I am certain it was just a few number of seconds.

Now I have had more practice than most. My first semi-automatic handgun was a 45ACP model 1911 and that was back in 1977. I have put well in excess of 100,000 rounds of 45 ACP downrange over the years. While my target guns were mostly 1911s, when the choice is mine, my defensive side arm has been the 45 ACP SIG P220 since 1978 and still is today if I can carry a large sidearm.

When I need to be much more discreet I will often pocket carry my Boberg 45



Thanks to the bullpup design of this pistol it actually has a barrel length of 3.75"

I would much rather have a single hit with a 230 grain 45ACP Hollow Point then to catch a double tap with a 9MM projectile half that weight

Finally got a chance to try a 10mm. My buddy let me use his 5" X-Ten with some 180gr handoads that I loaded up (because those are the only .40 bullets I have on hand). The X-Ten is definitely a soft-recoiling 10mm, and it ran everything we fed it with zero problems.

My load chronographed at 1210fps and penetrated 5 jugs before exiting out the bottom corner of the 5th. I recovered the bullet resting on top of the dirt about centered under the 6th jug for a total penetration of 34". There was no significant deformation, so I don't think hitting the dirt was much of a factor...at the most we're talking plus or minus a couple of inches.



There were some jugs left and my buddy wanted to try his XTP handload so we did that one as well. It was also a 180gr bullet, chronographed at 1175fps. It made it through four jugs and flattened out against the side of the 5th for a total of 25".



I would still like to try some hotter Underwood 200 or 220gr ammo at some point, because this was my first time loading 10mm and I played it reasonably safe because I didn't want to risk blowing up my buddy's gun. There's still some untapped potential there, but I'm not sure it's enough to even catch the 45+P at 53", much less significantly surpass it.

All results to date:
Underwood 255gr .45 ACP +P out of P220 Compact at 903fps: 53"
Underwood 255Gr SWC .44 Mag out of 2 3/4" S&W Model 69 at 1177 fps: 65"
Underwood 255Gr SWC .44 Mag out of 4.1" S&W Model 329PD at 1274 fps: 64"
Underwood 255Gr SWC .44 Mag out of 16" Marlin 1894 at 1584 fps: 48"
Buffalo Bore 158gr SWC .38 +P out of 1 7/8" S&W 642 at 1050fps: 32"
Hornady 110gr Critical Defense out of 1 7/8" S&W 642 at 785 fps: 6" (stuck in board)
Hornady 110gr XTP Handload out of 1 7/8" S&W 642 at 952 fps: 18"
180gr .40 S&W Hard Cast out of a P229 at 1088fps: 33"
148gr Wadcutter out of a S&W 642 (1 7/8") at 741fps: 7" (penetrated board but not second jug)
148gr Wadcutter out of a S&W 60 (3") at 797fps: 12"
148gr Wadcutter out of a S&W 66 (4") at 864fps: 28"
Federal HST 124gr out of a P320 Compact at 1066fps: 6" (stuck in board)
180gr 10mm Hard Cast over 7.8gr Power Pistol out of 5” X-Ten at 1210fps: 34”
180gr XTP out of 5” X-Ten at 1175fps: 24”

Buffalo Bore bullets are expensive, but even his .38 special heavy load is guaranteed to penetrate the skull of bull or bear.
I carry his .38 load in my lw Smith .38...just in case.
My favorite is .45 Colt and I've loaded tons of it in hardcast 255 gr, 325 gr at chrono'd 1350 fps, as per primary loading data from John LInebaugh.
My son loves it in his vintage Colt single-action Army revolver I gave him.
I am revolver guy for woods carry. When is Alaska, I carried my John Linebaugh custom Ruger Bisley 0.500 Linebaugh 425 gr hard-cast at 1300 fps. My wife had my Ruger custom revolver in .45 Colt. We didn't need the firepower but happy to have it available as it was fall weather in Homer, Ak and the moose were in the rut.

For lucky folks who love .45 Colt heavy handloads in single-action Ruger revolvers, I would point you to "John Linebaugh .45 Colt." Tons of loading data and fun reading from the MASTER.
If you see flattened primers and difficult extraction, stop... You are maxed out...

quote:

Buffalo Bore bullets are expensive, but even his .38 special heavy load is guaranteed to penetrate the skull of bull or bear.
I carry his .38 load in my lw Smith .38...just in case.

That 158gr .38 +P load is giving you magnum velocities out of a .38 snubby. I was pretty impressed with it, and do think it would get the job done if you can make the hits. I wouldn't feed an airweight a steady diet of those things, but it is a way to pack a lot of punch out of a tiny gun.

quote:

I am revolver guy for woods carry. When is Alaska, I carried my John Linebaugh custom Ruger Bisley 0.500 Linebaugh 425 gr hard-cast at 1300 fps. My wife had my Ruger custom revolver in .45 Colt.

I love the .45 Colt and have carried my Blackhawk in the woods before. I'm not a fan of single-action for defensive use, though, and that gun weighs a lot more than I'd like for a backpacking companion. My first trip to AK I took my Smith Model 69 2 3/4", and the second trip was my 329PD. I love that airweight, and I wish Smith would make a 325PD in .45 colt.

I tried a Taurus 450 for a bit but couldn't get it to group worth a darn until I backed the powder charge down to .45 ACP levels with light bullets, which defeated the purpose. It hated anything over 200gr, and was really more happy with 185s, and the forcing cone was so thin I'd have been afraid to try pushing anything too hard anyway. It's just so hard and expensive to find DA revolvers in .45 Colt these days...it's easier to just handload for the .44 Mag and adapt that cartridge to what you want.

Check out Randy Garrett's Hammerhead ammo. Have used them in my .44mag woods gun and .45-70 for buffalo. They also come in .45LC. Heavy cast bullets with large meplat work.

Just saw this video today. Apparently somebody else had the same question, and their results kind of mirror my own. I'm thinking more and more that if I really wanted to carry a semi-auto, my P220 Compact with the right ammo would get the job done.

Tim Sundles / Buffalo Bore has a fairly new YouTube channel talking about most of the stuff discussed in this thread.
I’m sorry I don’t have a link handy at the moment but you can probably find his channel pretty easily if interested.

quote:

Originally posted by Jimineer:
Tim Sundles / Buffalo Bore has a fairly new YouTube channel talking about most of the stuff discussed in this thread.
I’m sorry I don’t have a link handy at the moment but you can probably find his channel pretty easily if interested.

That's actually how I found the video posted above...he referenced it in his Mountain Gun video so I searched and found it. I'm also looking forward to his video on the Model 69 that he said he's going to do...I really like mine and am looking forward to seeing what he does with it. The guy has done his research for sure, and knows a thing or two about using a handgun in the woods.

ETA: Apparently Youtube nuked Tim Sundle's channel. The videos are still out there but you have to get to them through his website. He did get the Model 69 video done...unfortunately it was basically just a rant about quality control issues with the sights. I don't disagree with his points, but it meant there wasn't much discussion of the gun itself.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: 92fstech,

quote:

Originally posted by 92fstech:
Finally got a chance to try a 10mm. My buddy let me use his 5" X-Ten with some 180gr handoads that I loaded up (because those are the only .40 bullets I have on hand). The X-Ten is definitely a soft-recoiling 10mm, and it ran everything we fed it with zero problems.

If you think the XTen is soft shooting, try the XTen Comp. Mine is rapidly becoming one of my favorite handguns.

quote:

Originally posted by 2000Z-71:

If you think the XTen is soft shooting, try the XTen Comp. Mine is rapidly becoming one of my favorite handguns.

The X-Ten comp slide is wider, right? So probably similar mass to the regular X-Ten, plus it has the comp (which I imagine actually does something in a 10mm). I can see the appeal. I definitely wouldn't mind getting my hands on one to play with.

quote:

I took a hog with this combo a year ago and it went completely through, clipping the left front shoulder shattering it and passing at an angle exiting out in front of the right hip.
Obviously this isn't a big brown bear, but the wound track was a straight line after blowing through that shoulder blade, pretty impressive as compared to conventional bullets.

That is definitely impressive, and thanks for sharing your real-world experience on an actual critter. Hogs are no joke, and I'd imagine that if a round penetrated enough to go clear through a hog's shoulder and out the other side, it's pretty safe to extrapolate that it could reach the vitals on a bear. Your Glock 36 is also a very carry-able gun, which is very much in the spirit of what I'm looking for here...not a heavy, long-barreled hunting handgun, but a small and convenient defensive tool to keep handy for when everything else goes wrong.

quote:

Originally posted by GCE61:

quote:

ETA: Apparently Youtube nuked Tim Sundle's channel. The videos are still out there but you have to get to them through his website. He did get the Model 69 video done...unfortunately it was basically just a rant about quality control issues with the sights. I don't disagree with his points, but it meant there wasn't much discussion of the gun itself.

I was getting ready to post on this thread yesterday and link Tim's youtube vids, but I also noticed Youtube gave him the slapdown. WTF...

Tim discussed in a few videos the importance of hardcast bullets when dealing with larger animals that need penetration, specifically on large bears where he lives in Idaho.
Some very interesting viewpoints on penetration, and he certainly has experience in this area. Tim and Brian Pearce both have some clear viewpoints on hardcast bullets and large game.

I was going to link the vids he discusses 10MM vs 45ACP using hardcast and bears, very interesting perspective. Another is the 44SPL with his hardcast Outdoorsman loads.

I have a Glock 36 (current production FGR version) that I use as my hiking and "backyard gun". We have quite a few black bears raiding garbage cans and not shy to roam through properties when folks are outside.
It's loaded with the Buffalo Bore 45acp +P hardcast Outdoorsman load. I upgraded it years ago with a Wolff 21# guide rod and spring setup and runs flawlessly.

I took a hog with this combo a year ago and it went completely through, clipping the left front shoulder shattering it and passing at an angle exiting out in front of the right hip.
Obviously this isn't a big brown bear, but the wound track was a straight line after blowing through that shoulder blade, pretty impressive as compared to conventional bullets.

Keep up with the updates on your tests, very interesting stuff!

That is a BIG black bear! Nice G36, too. I like the slimmer profile compared to the G30/G29. Does the factory barrel handle the hard cast ok, or did you swap it out?

quote:

Originally posted by 92fstech:

quote:

I took a hog with this combo a year ago and it went completely through, clipping the left front shoulder shattering it and passing at an angle exiting out in front of the right hip.
Obviously this isn't a big brown bear, but the wound track was a straight line after blowing through that shoulder blade, pretty impressive as compared to conventional bullets.

That is definitely impressive, and thanks for sharing your real-world experience on an actual critter. Hogs are no joke, and I'd imagine that if a round penetrated enough to go clear through a hog's shoulder and out the other side, it's pretty safe to extrapolate that it could reach the vitals on a bear. Your Glock 36 is also a very carry-able gun, which is very much in the spirit of what I'm looking for here...not a heavy, long-barreled hunting handgun, but a small and convenient defensive tool to keep handy for when everything else goes wrong.

Yes, impressive to say the least, out of a compact 45 no less.
So I’ve used 35Rem in a Marlin 336 with jacketed soft points on pigs, obviously no problem. And a Rossi M92 in 44mag with 240JSP’s which do the trick, but the slugs deformed terribly when hitting any bone and I think the higher velocity out of a carbine causes the bullet to prematurely come apart. Penetration was limited when hitting bone, caused a massive wound but penetration sucked as compared to what you’d want on a big bear.
So I really think the key is the hardcast bullet for bears. I have the Buffalo Bore 44spl hardcast outdoorsman rounds I shoot in my Ruger Flattop Bisley, I’ve yet to run them through the Rossi 92 for function but if it runs smooth and prints good groups that Rossi and Ruger will be hunting hogs in the fall.