The absolute best penetrating 45 acp I ever tried, even above the Buffalo Bore 255s, is the 200 grain Speer 45 acp +P Jacketed Flat Nose. I tested these on a black bear shoulder blade, covered in 1# of bologna which was covered by 1/4" thick leather. It was all backed by 6-1 gallon water jugs. At 20 yards it blew through the leather, meat, bone and lodged in the 5th water jug. The Buffalo Bore.stopped in the 4th jug and the Double Tap 230 grain stopped in the 4th as well but shed its jacket in the 3rd jug.

quote:

Originally posted by badguybuster:
The absolute best penetrating 45 acp I ever tried, even above the Buffalo Bore 255s, is the 200 grain Speer 45 acp +P Jacketed Flat Nose. I tested these on a black bear shoulder blade, covered in 1# of bologna which was covered by 1/4" thick leather. It was all backed by 6-1 gallon water jugs. At 20 yards it blew through the leather, meat, bone and lodged in the 5th water jug. The Buffalo Bore.stopped in the 4th jug and the Double Tap 230 grain stopped in the 4th as well but shed its jacket in the 3rd jug.

Interesting.

quote:

Originally posted by jhe888:
If I really thought I might have to shoot a bear in self defense, it would be at least a .44 mag, if not a .460 or .500, although those guns are clownishly big. For that matter, you'd have to consider a 12 gauge slug or .45-70, but certainly no less than a .44 mag.

I wouldn't consider a .45 at all, and probably not a 10mm.

I think anyone who deals with griz would not take a 45 acp. Even with the heaviest hard cast available, it still doesn't have the punch let alone enough sectional density to get the job done.

quote:

Originally posted by wrightd:
I think anyone who deals with griz would not take a 45 acp. Even with the heaviest hard cast available, it still doesn't have the punch let alone enough sectional density to get the job done.

I get the theory behind it, but the questions I'm trying to answer are how do the cartridges compare, and how much penetration is enough? I can’t find a number for the latter anywhere. To answer the former, I don't have a bunch of bears to test this on, but I do have a compact .45, a 2 3/4" .44 Magnum, a 4" .44 Magnum, a buddy with a 10mm, and kids who drink a lot of milk. The 4" .44 seems to be a commonly accepted standard for at least “good enough in a pinch,” so that’s going to be the benchmark to compare the others against.

What I’ve established so far is that hard cast .45ACP +P out of a compact handgun gives me 81% of the penetration of a .44 Magnum out of snubby. The next step is to see how those compare to a .44 out of the 4” barrel, and then hopefully I can get my hands on a 10mm and see how that compares to all of them.

The goal isn’t to determine how effective any of these choices will be against real-life animals…that would be unrealistic given the parameters. I just want to see how the cartridges compare to one another out of different platforms, how much is the .44 giving up out of the short barrel, and if 10mm is really significantly more effective than heavy .45 like it’s reputation suggests.

I’m being tempted by a Wilson CQB in 10mm right now.

Got enough milk jugs saved up to try another gun today. Shot the same Underwood Load (255Gr Keith Semi-Wadcutter .44 Magnum) out of the 329PD (4.1" barrel) . I recovered the bullet in the 11th jug, so it stopped somewhere between 60-64".



So results to date:

Underwood 255gr .45 ACP +P out of P220 Compact: 53"
Underwood 255Gr SWC .44 Mag out of 2 3/4" S&W Model 69: 65"
Underwood 255Gr SWC .44 Mag out of 4.1" S&W Model 329PD: 64"


I had a few full jugs left over so I tried shooting them with another of the Underwood .44s out of my 16" Marlin 1894, but the bullet left the jug column after 50" and I couldn't find it. I blew the rest of the jugs up with soft-points out of the levergun, which was impressively violent.

I've got another big-bore lightweight snubby revolver on the way from Gunbroker, so assuming it works that'll probably be the next one to get tested once I collect some more milk jugs.

quote:

Originally posted by 92fstech:
I've got another big-bore lightweight snubby revolver on the way from Gunbroker, so assuming it works that'll probably be the next one to get tested once I collect some more milk jugs.

Details? I'm still considering getting a 2.75" Smith Model 69, or a Ruger Alaskan.

quote:

Originally posted by 2000Z-71:

quote:

Originally posted by 92fstech:
I've got another big-bore lightweight snubby revolver on the way from Gunbroker, so assuming it works that'll probably be the next one to get tested once I collect some more milk jugs.

Details? I'm still considering getting a 2.75" Smith Model 69, or a Ruger Alaskan.

I'm afraid to say because you'll make fun of me, lol.

It's a Taurus 450 Titanium. I've said for a long time that my ideal woods carry gun would be a Scandium-Framed L-Frame snubby in .45 Colt, but Smith doesn't make such a thing, and if you're willing to go up to an N-Frame and can even find a 3" 25 or 625 in .45 Colt, you're looking at north of $2500. And as far as I know they never made a Scandium 325 in that caliber...if they did you'd be looking at crazy money.

I've owned two Taurus revolvers before and both were crap. I'd sworn off buying any more, but for something this unique under $500 (before all the gunbroker fees, shipping, and transfer) I figured this might be the only chance I have to give it a try. The 450 line is discontinued, and I've seen them go for over $800 before, so if it works I'll have done ok. Worst case, my skills as a revolver plumber have advanced significantly since I last owned a Taurus, so I can probably fix any minor issues that it might have.

From my sample-size-of-one-per-gun testing, the longer barrel of the 329PD doesn't seem to be much of an advantage over the snubby 69. We'll see how that translates to .45 Colt...assuming this Brazilian hand-cannon is in-time and doesn't blow up in my face.

As to your debate between the 69 and the Super Redhawk Alaskan:

I love my 69. It has the best trigger of any Smith I own, and is stupid accurate. It's also a lot trimmer, lighter, and easier to carry than the Super Redhawk would be. The only downside I can think of is that you give up one round.

All that said, my last two trips the 69 has stayed home and the 329PD has come along for the ride. The 69 is a better range gun...more accurate, less felt-recoil, easier to thoroughly clean...but even the short-barreled version is so much heavier than the 329 that when you're out and about, especially
hiking, the scandium gun is just so much easier to carry. I really love shooting those big heavy revolvers, but in the real world the lighter guns are just so much more practical.

quote:

Originally posted by 92fstech:
I've said for a long time that my ideal woods carry gun would be a Scandium-Framed L-Frame snubby in .45 Colt, but Smith doesn't make such a thing, and if you're willing to go up to an N-Frame and can even find a 3" 25 or 625 in .45 Colt, you're looking at north of $2500. And as far as I know they never made a Scandium 325 in that caliber...if they did you'd be looking at crazy money.

They did make the 325 Night Guard which was a snobby Scandium frame, and you're right, they are stupid money. I've wanted a 310 Night Guard for a long time, but at the prices they're going for I'll keep wanting.

I know they made the 325 Night Guard in .45 ACP. I've never seen one in .45 Colt though...not that that means it doesn't exist, but there can't be many out there if it does. I'd like to find one, if only to see by how much I can't afford it! S&W never should have discontinued the Night Guard line...IMO it was something unique and a very practical application for the modern revolver.

Pretty interesting stuff, thanks for your ongoing tests of this. I have also considered carrying my 5" 1911 for a woods gun, but given that I have a 329PD and a 10mm I'm not sure why I would handicap myself.

quote:

Originally posted by Killer Instincts:
Pretty interesting stuff, thanks for your ongoing tests of this. I have also considered carrying my 5" 1911 for a woods gun, but given that I have a 329PD and a 10mm I'm not sure why I would handicap myself.

Yeah, that 329 has made a lot of other stuff hard to justify. The semi-autos offer higher capacity and quicker reloads (if you even have time to take advantage of those things), but that revolver gives you lighter weight, more power, and arguably superior reliability*.

* I did have to delete the internal lock on the 329 because the flag was popping up under recoil and jamming up the gun.

quote:

Originally posted by 92fstech:
I know they made the 325 Night Guard in .45 ACP. I've never seen one in .45 Colt though...not that that means it doesn't exist, but there can't be many out there if it does.

Yu're right, that's what I get for posting at 0237. The 325 Night Guard was in .45ACP. Probably the closest thing you's be able to fin is a 625 Mountain Gun. While steel framed they did have a number of weight saving features like the tapered barrel and chamfered cylinder.

I've got a 629 Mountain Gun that was my woods carry gun for a number of years. Hasn't been carried much since I bought my 329. I can thank Canada for making me buy that one. Was supposed to go on a Brown Bear photography trip in Haines, Alaska and had to drive through Canada to get there. At the time Canada prohibited transporting any handgun with less than a 4.1" barrel. My 629 is 4.0" and the 329 is 4.125". But then Covid hit, didn't;t make the trip but have a 329 as a souvenir.

^ and now they won't let you bring it in at all, 4.1" barrel or not . For a nation with vast amounts of wilderness, they sure do have funny ideas about guns.

That trip sounds amazing, though...you should do it anyway and post pics! If you fly there, you can avoid Canada's BS .

quote:

Originally posted by 92fstech:
^ and now they won't let you bring it in at all, 4.1" barrel or not . For a nation with vast amounts of wilderness, they sure do have funny ideas about guns.

That trip sounds amazing, though...you should do it anyway and post pics! If you fly there, you can avoid Canada's BS .

Because 70% of Canada's population lives south of Seattle, not much wilderness there.

https://unofficialnetworks.com...-seattle/#:~:text=It's%20the%202nd%20largest%20country,the%20western%20US%20from%20Canada.

Flying into Haines gets to be a little difficult, no commercial air service. So it's fly into Juneau and take an air taxi with Alaska Seaplanes or catch the ferry. Unfortunately that connection for the trip now operates out of the lower 48.

The Speer Lawman 200 grain 45 acp +p is an excellent deep penetrator. I habe taken several deer and hogs with it

quote:

Originally posted by 92fstech:

quote:

Originally posted by Killer Instincts:
Pretty interesting stuff, thanks for your ongoing tests of this. I have also considered carrying my 5" 1911 for a woods gun, but given that I have a 329PD and a 10mm I'm not sure why I would handicap myself.

Yeah, that 329 has made a lot of other stuff hard to justify. The semi-autos offer higher capacity and quicker reloads (if you even have time to take advantage of those things), but that revolver gives you lighter weight, more power, and arguably superior reliability*.

* I did have to delete the internal lock on the 329 because the flag was popping up under recoil and jamming up the gun.

That's interesting. I haven't had that problem, but I think I will preemptively delete mine anyway. Thanks for the heads up - hadn't considered that potential issue.

quote:

Originally posted by Killer Instincts:

That's interesting. I haven't had that problem, but I think I will preemptively delete mine anyway. Thanks for the heads up - hadn't considered that potential issue.

It would never have occurred to me if I hadn't actually seen it happen. I have a bunch of steel guns with the lock, and have never had a problem with any of them, same with my 360J in .38+p, but that .44 airweight is in a class of its own when it comes to recoil. It didn't spin the lock mechanism, just bounced up the flag. All I had to do was push it back down and the gun was back in action, but it took a few seconds to figure that out and it's not something I'd want to have happen in a real-life situation.

I ordered the delete kit as soon as I got home from the range that day...$40 to remove a "feature" on an $1100 handgun that never should have been there in the first place .

I think one should put the Lehigh Defense offerings into the mix when it comes to max performance. One can load themselves or buy loaded ammo.

There may not be a bunch of real world uses yet, but testing is somewhat impressive. Most are basically a lighter copper bullet, no need to mushroom.

quote:

Originally posted by 92fstech:

quote:

Originally posted by Killer Instincts:

That's interesting. I haven't had that problem, but I think I will preemptively delete mine anyway. Thanks for the heads up - hadn't considered that potential issue.

It would never have occurred to me if I hadn't actually seen it happen. I have a bunch of steel guns with the lock, and have never had a problem with any of them, same with my 360J in .38+p, but that .44 airweight is in a class of its own when it comes to recoil. It didn't spin the lock mechanism, just bounced up the flag. All I had to do was push it back down and the gun was back in action, but it took a few seconds to figure that out and it's not something I'd want to have happen in a real-life situation.

I ordered the delete kit as soon as I got home from the range that day...$40 to remove a "feature" on an $1100 handgun that never should have been there in the first place .

Yeah, what a great feature... truly brilliant. Which kit did you get, specifically? I see a couple of them on the market.