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Down the Rabbit Hole |
I watched it a couple of weeks ago. I thought the comments were also very interesting. Diligentia, Vis, Celeritas "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." -- George Orwell | |||
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Lost |
^I just finished the video, and it has me thinking as well. I'm wondering if these things are in fact having spontaneous discharges in the field, and it's due to both poor design and deficient quality control. That said, I don't it detracts at all from the assertion that these platforms need safeties. Problems can have multiple causes, and the 320 seems to be the poster child for this. | |||
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| Member |
You have a good grasp of it. I am an Sig certified armorer on the 320 as well as the 365. I’ve been involved with a SF guy who had a 320 discharge in a Bladetech holster while seated in his truck. I inspected his copy and found several issues related to sear engagement, sear springs crossed, etc. I routinely carry 365s. I won’t carry my 320. | |||
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Member |
That was my thought as well. I’m currently issued a P320 and carry it or my personally purchased and approved for on or off duty carry P365. Currently working on the west coast, I’ve been hearing a lot about these academies (this academy isn’t the only one) that prohibit the use of the P320. Personally, I’m not sure what the issue is, but I will say that if I were the chief of police for an agency I would not even consider issuing the P320, even if they were free. I would not allow personally owned P320 pistols to be carried on duty either. If I was the decision maker in my current agency, I would move to replace the P320. I don’t particularly love my issued gun, primarily because I don’t love the way it feels in my hands, but have not had any issues with it and I do shoot it pretty well. I just think there are enough documented instances of guns firing in their holsters with no hands present on or near the guns that I think there are better options for police issue. The way that SIG has handled this also does not leave me with a lot of warm and fuzzies either. I just think that right now there are too many alternatives that don’t carry the potential liability. “It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.” | |||
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| I swear I had something for this |
Are you allowed to try aftermarket frames or just the Sig OEMs? | |||
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Nullus Anxietas |
It does seem odd. SIG has three markets for this pistol and its variations, yes? LEO, military, and consumer. Yet it seems it's only LEOs that ever have these problems. (I got a chuckle out of the "special needs" line, btw  )I have an OG P320 full-size in .45 ACP. Un-"upgraded." Why un-"upgraded?" Because I sent my Walther PPS M2 in for a similar fix. Like my P320, it had had an excellent trigger for a striker-fired pistol before I sent it in. After it came back: Not so much. I wonder if I can send my P320 into GG and have them do what's needful? At least then I'll have some confidence they won't ruin the trigger in the process. Btw: My P320 has been back-and-forth between safe in the basement and nightstand next to the bed multiple times in its life. It's also once-or-twice been in a holster. And, of course, it's had range time. It hasn't self-discharged yet. "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system,,,, but too early to shoot the bastards." -- Claire Wolfe "If we let things terrify us, life will not be worth living." -- Seneca the Younger, Roman Stoic philosopher | |||
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Frangas non Flectes |
Except it’s not. The video I embedded on the previous page is long, but it covers a surprising number of incidents and it’s not all cops. ______________________________________________ Endeavoring to master the subtle art of the grapefruit spoon. | |||
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| Member |
I know the SIG aluminum frame is allowed and if I stay, I will likely try it. I like the feel with the aluminum frame much better. I’ve said all along that the plastic that sig uses on these feel cheap to me. If it was the same plastic that was used on the SIGPro frames I’d probably like the feel much better. As we go deeper down the rabbit hole though with respect to unexpected discharges, I’m less inclined to want to invest money into this system. “It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.” | |||
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| I swear I had something for this |
The Wilson Combat frames are excellent and lower in price if you can try them. They might look like they started as Sig OEM frames, but it's far from the truth. | |||
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Domari Nolo |
Good one, Ian. | |||
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Fighting the good fight |
This just in from Bruce Gray and Grayguns:
Personally, I'm more willing to trust the engineers and expert gunsmiths rather than the lawyers and social media influencers. | |||
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| Freethinker |
I received that welcome email from Bruce as well. Some things benefit by being stated clearly. ► 6.0/94.0 “To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead.” — Thomas Paine | |||
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Prepared for the Worst, Providing the Best |
I agree. Knowing that Bruce and company are actively testing the guns looking for problems and still have the confidence to make that statement is encouraging. I definitely put more stock in their opinion than some social media marketer at Sig. I finally got through the whole video that P220 Smudge posted. There are some interesting technical theories in there buried within a lot of snark and defamatory stuff about the company that's not necessarily related to the gun itself. Maybe they are truly scumbags, I don't know, but I never really trust marketing people anyway, so that hour's worth of info wasn't particularly helpful. I thought the most useful takeaway was that he did a pretty good job of compiling a list of incidents involving the P320.
I'd be interested in knowing exactly what you found in the gun after that incident. I'd like to know what things I should be looking for during inspections to help make sure we don't have a gun that's about to become a problem. It sounds like crossed sear springs are a recurring theme, and obviously verifying the function of the striker safety and spring is important, but if there are other things we should be paying attention to as well that would be really helpful to know. | |||
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| Fighting the good fight |
More details and photos from lwt16 here: https://pistol-forum.com/showt...P320-Concerns/page12 I'm not a P320 Armorer, but perhaps you'll know: Is it possible to assemble the sear springs in that improper crossed configuration on the newer version of the sear with the two "nipples", as it apparently was with the older 2017-era P320's sear with the two depressions shown in lwt16's photos at the link?  | |||
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| Prepared for the Worst, Providing the Best |
Thanks Rogue, that's good info at that link. I would think that you probably could still cross the springs with the new sear, but it would definitely be harder. I can affirm what LWT said about the striker safety lever spring, too. I'm not sure when they got rid of that, but when I went through the armorer course in 2020 the guns we worked on didn't have it. When I got home I tore my duty gun apart (that one was 2018 issue, IIRC...it was one of the replacements we got to replace our pre-upgrade guns, so it came from the factory with the upgrade) and found that spring in there. They'd told us in class to toss them because they weren't necessary, so I did. IIRC the spring puts downward pressure on the lever, so if it's working properly it keeps the lever down, but I can see how if it broke or got mangled it might jam the lever up. | |||
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| Member |
I think there’s a good chance that a big part of why Grayguns hasn’t duplicated any potential issues is that they use machined, tool steel components when they put them into these guns. I really think that tolerance stacking may be a major part of the problem, and frankly MIM just doesn’t give me the same confidence of strength as tool steel does. The components that Grayguns is using likely far exceed the capabilities, strength and quality of the SIG factory components. That’s why they can output a safe pistol, with absolute reliability and much improved trigger feel. I think that the design of the 320 is likely not problematic itself, but some of the components that SIG uses in the manufacture just might not be able to withstand situations that exceed their anticipated design conditions. Of something doesn’t go right then it can allow a catastrophic failure. “It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.” | |||
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| Fighting the good fight |
Perhaps Bruce himself could chime in to clarify, but I didn't take their statement to mean that they've rigorously tested only those P320s that are outfitted with Grayguns parts. Rather, they've rigorously tested the P320 system itself (including stock factory guns) and come up with nothing yet. | |||
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Member |
Bruce and the Oregon team have tested many P320s, including straight-up OEM pistols in all variations. His letter was not specific to guns with their premium aftermarket parts. Of course, he also has the feedback from the 30-plus of us on the grassroots SIG team who all had P320s—eventually both pre- and post-voluntary upgrades—and who put hundreds of thousands of rounds down range with those guns. There were also thousands of holster draw and reholstering cycles, most with level 1 retention holsters used in competition. More recently, he's gotten continued feedback from Mason, Kaylee, Isaac, Joe, and other competitors. (Almost all of these guns made it back to Bruce at least once or twice for detailed inspections and testing over many years.) When it comes to the trigger* upgrades available for the P320, Grayguns has three triggers (hybrid, straight and curved) that are adjustable for over-travel and are "American-made from precision machined tool steel, heat-treated, hand-finished, and gauged for perfect appearance, fit, and function." For the competition/range-only trigger system, the sear starts its life as an OEM SIG sear. It is a "precision-ground custom sear, polished and finished in hard nickel PTFE." The other components of the competition system are springs and the extended safety lever pin. * I mentioned the trigger components here as they seem most related to the thread, but much effort has also gone into the custom slides and complete top ends during the past two years to make the P320 even more accurate and shootable. Steve Small Business Website Design & Maintenance - https://spidercreations.net | OpSpec Training - https://opspectraining.com | Grayguns - https://grayguns.com Evil exists. You can not negotiate with, bribe or placate evil. You're not going to be able to have it sit down with Dr. Phil for an anger management session either. | |||
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Member |
It was. We asked for them after the issues my department had with them prior to the drop safe issue. They said it wasn’t in production. They never issued them to LE or the public to my knowledge. | |||
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| Peace through superior firepower  |
steve945, please check your email. | |||
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