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Get Off My Lawn![]() |
Just finished watching the whole video, thanks for posting. I completely forgot that Ron Cohen used to head Kimber and was likely responsible for their decline in QC and reputation, and we're seeing the same in Sig. The arrogance and lack of accountability of Sig matches many other greedy companies through the years, this is a clusterfuck that should take down the leadership at Sig Sauer, we'll see. "I’m not going to read Time Magazine, I’m not going to read Newsweek, I’m not going to read any of these magazines; I mean, because they have too much to lose by printing the truth"- Bob Dylan, 1965 | |||
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E tan e epi tas![]() |
This, I agree with, not the loss of SIG as a whole. Kimber is arguably turning out some great products these days and has been …….well not long after they got rid of Cohen. I said Cohen was an issue for SIG when he was brought on board. I truly feel somebody else could have made them profitable but not at the massive loss of quality and QC we’ve seen over the years. Take Care, Shoot Safe, Chris | |||
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Video showing a stock 320 discharging from slide manipulation, something that should not be possible. He jams a screw against the trigger to simulate a finger holding it a very small distance (about a millimeter), i.e. a partial trigger pull. I would propose that tolerance play could produce a sear perch condition even if the trigger was then completely released. So at some point a momentary partial trigger press creates a sear perch and a dead trigger, with the striker safety released (as it is designed to at this point in the firing cycle). All it would take is manipulation of the slide to knock the striker catch off its perch, even if the gun is in a holster. Possibly even if the gun is sitting on a table, with the sear slowly creeping all on its own. So this whole problem could be a combination of accidental partial trigger press (easy to happen without a tab safety), no immediate discharge, but subsequent manipulation of the slide completes the firing cycle. | |||
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I swear I had something for this |
I still get the feeling that Sig would still bitch out and say the trigger was pulled. However, I do want to see if this will happen on a M17 or M18 with the manual safety. | |||
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^They probably would. But the fact remains, a slide should never be able to act like a trigger. This reminds me of the Remington Walker trigger debacle, where the damn safety acted like a trigger. | |||
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This corporate attitude and the general increase in quality related issues is one of the driving reasons that I recently sold off my last remaining SIG pistols. I know that I’m a nobody, but I am a paying customer and I no longer wish to support a company whose position is that “you are all wrong - the product is fine”. SIG used to stand for superb quality and well engineered products - that’s why most of us got into the classic P series 25+ years ago. Now it just stands for profit and Ron Cohen. Customers be damned… | |||
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So where is the revised FBI report? I am confused as to why the FBI only released the initial report. I would think that if new information came to light, they would have revised their initial report and released that. | |||
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Come on guys. A “stock unmodified 320” that just has a screw embedded in it to simulate a partial trigger pull. That video is fucked up bullshit. I’m all for finding a smoking gun. If they figure out the cause you can engineer a solution. But a screw holding the trigger slightly rearward? If you can wriggle the slide and it goes off then you have found the “problem”. You just watched a video where a fucking screw was screwed into the frame and then we are supposed to pretend that’s a relevant test? Oh please. Plus pretending that different guns operate differently and then saying “well pulling the trigger moves the slide, that’s a warning sign”. That is a retarded video. | |||
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Yeah, that was 40 minutes of clickbait. | |||
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What was the screw suppose to simulate ? ________________________ "The Revolver -A more elegant weapon from a more civilized age." | |||
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I swear I had something for this |
A minor obstruction in the holster be it dirt/lint/sand that could move the trigger 1mm but nowhere near enough to fire the gun by a full trigger press. | |||
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^Yes, a partial trigger press. If he simply used his finger, people could say, "Oh, he just pressed the trigger all the way." Although crude, it does provide a method for reproducing a consistent 1 mm displacement. A partial trigger press could conceivably occur in different ways. For example, the operator presses the trigger just slightly beyond the initial take-up. Alternately, something brushes against the unsafetied trigger, a bad holster or foreign object, but only slightly, and goes unnoticed unitl something jiggles the slide. | |||
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Prepared for the Worst, Providing the Best![]() |
So if he wants to simulate that, why not remove the screw after inserting it to relieve the pressure on the trigger again before the gun goes back into the holster or the slide gets manipulated? I could see this test having some validity when considering out of spec parts (as was apparently the case with the MSP pistols), but I don't think it works for the "I took up the slack in my trigger, decided not to shoot, and then put my gun away" scenario. He's also wrong about the trigger pre-travel doing nothing. The striker safety lever begins to move upward as soon as the trigger is pulled, long before the trigger reaches the wall. So by eliminating pre-travel, you're defeating (or at least beginning to defeat) one of the internal safeties of the handgun. I'm not sure if there are aftermarket triggers out there with set screws that do this, but in light of this video installing something like that on a P320 definitely seems like a bad idea. | |||
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IMO, in ref. the last video, a more realistic test would have been to press the trigger and stop short of releasing the striker. Remove your finger, then try pressing down on the slide, holstering, etc. and seeing if the striker is released. That would more closely represent a situation where a trigger press was initiated but not followed through. You beat me to this thought 92fs. Sic Semper Tyrannis If you beat your swords into plowshares, you will become farmers for those who didn't! Political Correctness is fascism pretending to be Manners-George Carlin | |||
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I swear I had something for this |
That would only be a test of the trigger return spring. This would be a minor holster obstruction that would that barely moved the trigger for Sig's QC to cause a ND. We all know how Sig loves to introduce rolling updates and not tell anyone about them. | |||
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Yes, some good points 92fstech. I do agree that there are some unfilled holes in his theory, and that's why I think there's also some tolerance take-up issues in the trigger bar-sear mechanics to explain the dead trigger. But he still highlights some important issues that need to be explored. A slide should never be able to act like a trigger. | |||
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I'd like to see that experiment, too. | |||
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Make America Great Again![]() |
Extremely well done and intelligent video! His opinions on most of this debacle mirror the gut feelings I've had toward it for a long while now, and it certainly reaffirms my stance in never owning a P320. My feelings toward Sig USA and Ron Cohen right now are also major factors in why I recently dumped my P365 and went back to only hammer fired pistols. It definitely causes some serious concern for the future of what used to be a proud company! Personally, I think that Sig can fix this problem and come out from under it in the long run, but not with Cohen at the helm. That is the FIRST problem that should be corrected!
I know that I will likely never trust them again, at least for new products! I'll keep my old school W. German guns for sure, but the name is tarnished in my mind forever... ETA: and yes, cslinger, the SigPro was their first polymer pistol, and as you said, a damn fine one at that! I just bought one in like new condition about 2 weeks ago in .40S&W and it reminded me why I never should have sold the other SigPros that I have owned in the past. It's a bit of a pain to field strip and reassemble, but otherwise zero complaints from me! ____________________________ Bill R. North Alabama _____________________________ Classic West German P-Series Fan... Hammer-Fired Only! | |||
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Get Off My Lawn![]() |
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Savor the limelight |
My understanding is the FBI did not release the report, rather it was released by the MSP under a Freedom of Information Act Request. I have no clue how those work, but I’d guess the report that was requested was the one that got release and nothing more. On the Fairburn video: I haven’t yet to finish it, so I apologize for my questions: Does he address the fact that the MSP completed its transition to the P320 after and despite the incident with its trooper, the initial FBI report, and the subsequent FBI/SIG testing? Does he address the FBI’s ability to recreate the scratched on the trigger guard and make the holstered gun fire by using the keys the MSP trooper had in his hand? | |||
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