quote:

Originally posted by parabellum:
I urge all interested parties to listen to what Mr. Fairburn has to say on matters.

Just finished watching the whole video, thanks for posting. I completely forgot that Ron Cohen used to head Kimber and was likely responsible for their decline in QC and reputation, and we're seeing the same in Sig. The arrogance and lack of accountability of Sig matches many other greedy companies through the years, this is a clusterfuck that should take down the leadership at Sig Sauer, we'll see.

quote:

this is a clusterfuck that should take down the leadership at Sig Sauer, we'll see.

This, I agree with, not the loss of SIG as a whole.

Kimber is arguably turning out some great products these days and has been …….well not long after they got rid of Cohen. I said Cohen was an issue for SIG when he was brought on board. I truly feel somebody else could have made them profitable but not at the massive loss of quality and QC we’ve seen over the years.

Video showing a stock 320 discharging from slide manipulation, something that should not be possible.

He jams a screw against the trigger to simulate a finger holding it a very small distance (about a millimeter), i.e. a partial trigger pull. I would propose that tolerance play could produce a sear perch condition even if the trigger was then completely released.

So at some point a momentary partial trigger press creates a sear perch and a dead trigger, with the striker safety released (as it is designed to at this point in the firing cycle). All it would take is manipulation of the slide to knock the striker catch off its perch, even if the gun is in a holster. Possibly even if the gun is sitting on a table, with the sear slowly creeping all on its own.

So this whole problem could be a combination of accidental partial trigger press (easy to happen without a tab safety), no immediate discharge, but subsequent manipulation of the slide completes the firing cycle.

I still get the feeling that Sig would still bitch out and say the trigger was pulled. However, I do want to see if this will happen on a M17 or M18 with the manual safety.

^They probably would. But the fact remains, a slide should never be able to act like a trigger.

This reminds me of the Remington Walker trigger debacle, where the damn safety acted like a trigger.

quote:

Originally posted by cslinger:
Agree about the fully tensioned striker. Lots use them. Hell the VP9 does and is known under certain impacts to drop its striker, it doesn’t however ignite a round because the safety’s work apparently. I believe it has more to do with poor parts quality, poor QC and possibly a sub par design.

That said it’s less about the gun and far more about SIG’s response. That is what has turned me personally off to them, not the fact that they may have screwed up a product or had a bad run of parts or whatever, it’s the attitude addressing it.

This corporate attitude and the general increase in quality related issues is one of the driving reasons that I recently sold off my last remaining SIG pistols. I know that I’m a nobody, but I am a paying customer and I no longer wish to support a company whose position is that “you are all wrong - the product is fine”. SIG used to stand for superb quality and well engineered products - that’s why most of us got into the classic P series 25+ years ago. Now it just stands for profit and Ron Cohen.

Customers be damned…

quote:

Originally posted by nhracecraft:
That's not 'entirely' accurate, and a bit misleading as it omits pertinent information re: a subsequent determination that hasn't been widely reported...Likely because it doesn't fit the narrative of those on the bandwagon.

Army’s Sig P320 Derived Pistols Will Remain Unchanged After Concerning FBI Report

https://www.twz.com/land/army-...oncerning-fbi-report

The following quote was snipped from the linked article published by TWZ (The War Zone) on July 17, 2025.

quote:

“Specifically, Sig explained that forcing the sear downward with a punch was moving the trigger bar forward and, as a result, the trigger to the rear since the sear is in constant contact with the trigger bar,” he continued. “Sig Sauer expressed concerns with the FBI’s initial report about how some of the tests were conducted.”

“Specifically, Sig explained that forcing the sear downward with a punch was moving the trigger bar forward and, as a result, the trigger to the rear since the sear is in constant contact with the trigger bar,” he continued. “Sig expressed that this was not a proper representation of the striker slipping off of the sear’s primary notch from a parallel/grip-down drop. Sig also noted that the FBI’s concern of the striker safety spring movement on the striker assembly post after getting hit with a hammer was unwarranted due to the viewing window that was cut into the slide that sacrificed the sidewall support of the striker safety spring.”

“After the initial report was submitted, Sig Sauer and its engineers worked in cooperation with the FBI and Michigan State Police to design a fixture that all agreed would create a more controlled testing protocol for striker/sear slippage,” St. John added. “Using that fixture, the FBI forced the sear off of the primary notch 565 times with 19EA different striker assemblies with zero indents on the primer (no fires).”

So where is the revised FBI report?

I am confused as to why the FBI only released the initial report. I would think that if new information came to light, they would have revised their initial report and released that.

Come on guys. A “stock unmodified 320” that just has a screw embedded in it to simulate a partial trigger pull. That video is fucked up bullshit.

I’m all for finding a smoking gun. If they figure out the cause you can engineer a solution. But a screw holding the trigger slightly rearward? If you can wriggle the slide and it goes off then you have found the “problem”. You just watched a video where a fucking screw was screwed into the frame and then we are supposed to pretend that’s a relevant test? Oh please.

Plus pretending that different guns operate differently and then saying “well pulling the trigger moves the slide, that’s a warning sign”.

That is a retarded video.

quote:

Originally posted by pedropcola:
Come on guys. A “stock unmodified 320” that just has a screw embedded in it to simulate a partial trigger pull. That video is fucked up bullshit.

Yeah, that was 40 minutes of clickbait.

What was the screw suppose to simulate ?

quote:

Originally posted by 10x Sniper:
What was the screw suppose to simulate ?

A minor obstruction in the holster be it dirt/lint/sand that could move the trigger 1mm but nowhere near enough to fire the gun by a full trigger press.

^Yes, a partial trigger press. If he simply used his finger, people could say, "Oh, he just pressed the trigger all the way." Although crude, it does provide a method for reproducing a consistent 1 mm displacement.

A partial trigger press could conceivably occur in different ways. For example, the operator presses the trigger just slightly beyond the initial take-up. Alternately, something brushes against the unsafetied trigger, a bad holster or foreign object, but only slightly, and goes unnoticed unitl something jiggles the slide.

quote:

Originally posted by kkina:
^Yes, a partial trigger press. If he simply used his finger, people could say, "Oh, he just pressed the trigger all the way." Although crude, it does provide a method for reproducing a consistent 1 mm displacement.

A partial trigger press could conceivably occur in different ways. For example, the operator presses the trigger just slightly beyond the initial take-up. Alternately, something brushes against the unsafetied trigger, a bad holster or foreign object, but only slightly, and goes unnoticed unitl something jiggles the slide.

So if he wants to simulate that, why not remove the screw after inserting it to relieve the pressure on the trigger again before the gun goes back into the holster or the slide gets manipulated?

I could see this test having some validity when considering out of spec parts (as was apparently the case with the MSP pistols), but I don't think it works for the "I took up the slack in my trigger, decided not to shoot, and then put my gun away" scenario.

He's also wrong about the trigger pre-travel doing nothing. The striker safety lever begins to move upward as soon as the trigger is pulled, long before the trigger reaches the wall. So by eliminating pre-travel, you're defeating (or at least beginning to defeat) one of the internal safeties of the handgun. I'm not sure if there are aftermarket triggers out there with set screws that do this, but in light of this video installing something like that on a P320 definitely seems like a bad idea.

IMO, in ref. the last video, a more realistic test would have been to press the trigger and stop short of releasing the striker. Remove your finger, then try pressing down on the slide, holstering, etc. and seeing if the striker is released. That would more closely represent a situation where a trigger press was initiated but not followed through.

You beat me to this thought 92fs.

quote:

Originally posted by 10-7 leo:
IMO, in ref. the last video, a more realistic test would have been to press the trigger and stop short of releasing the striker.

That would only be a test of the trigger return spring. This would be a minor holster obstruction that would that barely moved the trigger for Sig's QC to cause a ND. We all know how Sig loves to introduce rolling updates and not tell anyone about them.

quote:

So if he wants to simulate that, why not remove the screw after inserting it to relieve the pressure on the trigger again before the gun goes back into the holster or the slide gets manipulated?

I could see this test having some validity when considering out of spec parts (as was apparently the case with the MSP pistols), but I don't think it works for the "I took up the slack in my trigger, decided not to shoot, and then put my gun away" scenario.

He's also wrong about the trigger pre-travel doing nothing. The striker safety lever begins to move upward as soon as the trigger is pulled, long before the trigger reaches the wall. So by eliminating pre-travel, you're defeating (or at least beginning to defeat) one of the internal safeties of the handgun. I'm not sure if there are aftermarket triggers out there with set screws that do this, but in light of this video installing something like that on a P320 definitely seems like a bad idea.

Yes, some good points 92fstech. I do agree that there are some unfilled holes in his theory, and that's why I think there's also some tolerance take-up issues in the trigger bar-sear mechanics to explain the dead trigger. But he still highlights some important issues that need to be explored. A slide should never be able to act like a trigger.

quote:

IMO, in ref. the last video, a more realistic test would have been to press the trigger and stop short of releasing the striker. Remove your finger, then try pressing down on the slide, holstering, etc. and seeing if the striker is released. That would more closely represent a situation where a trigger press was initiated but not followed through.

I'd like to see that experiment, too.

quote:

Originally posted by parabellum:
Dick Fairburn's followup, as promised. The video is 47 minutes long. I have watched the entire video. You can start viewing the video at the 18 minute mark and I recommend watching it all the way until the end.
<<snip>>

Extremely well done and intelligent video! His opinions on most of this debacle mirror the gut feelings I've had toward it for a long while now, and it certainly reaffirms my stance in never owning a P320. My feelings toward Sig USA and Ron Cohen right now are also major factors in why I recently dumped my P365 and went back to only hammer fired pistols. It definitely causes some serious concern for the future of what used to be a proud company!

Personally, I think that Sig can fix this problem and come out from under it in the long run, but not with Cohen at the helm. That is the FIRST problem that should be corrected!

quote:

Originally posted by cslinger:
<<snip>>
Gun folk have long, long, long memories and no matter how much of a turn around SIG has with their future products and service a generation of us may never trust them again.

I know that I will likely never trust them again, at least for new products! I'll keep my old school W. German guns for sure, but the name is tarnished in my mind forever...

ETA: and yes, cslinger, the SigPro was their first polymer pistol, and as you said, a damn fine one at that! I just bought one in like new condition about 2 weeks ago in .40S&W and it reminded me why I never should have sold the other SigPros that I have owned in the past. It's a bit of a pain to field strip and reassemble, but otherwise zero complaints from me!

Saw this on another forum, the RRGC caters to competition shooters in the Bay Area.

quote:

Originally posted by Broadside:]
So where is the revised FBI report?

I am confused as to why the FBI only released the initial report. I would think that if new information came to light, they would have revised their initial report and released that.

My understanding is the FBI did not release the report, rather it was released by the MSP under a Freedom of Information Act Request. I have no clue how those work, but I’d guess the report that was requested was the one that got release and nothing more.

On the Fairburn video:

I haven’t yet to finish it, so I apologize for my questions:

Does he address the fact that the MSP completed its transition to the P320 after and despite the incident with its trooper, the initial FBI report, and the subsequent FBI/SIG testing?

Does he address the FBI’s ability to recreate the scratched on the trigger guard and make the holstered gun fire by using the keys the MSP trooper had in his hand?