Vancouver Sig Armorer was able to replicate the UD without the use of a holster on several pistols.

Marines use Safariland holster too, but not with WMLs. And yet the Okinawa incident, happened to a Marine, 5 hours into his shift.

You an Sig employee? You’re coming across as an apologist, not a critical thinker.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/sig...ended-143529561.html
The report notes that Person 1 (P1) was issued an M18 with two 17-round magazines; one magazine was inserted into the pistol, a round was chambered, the safety was engaged, and the M18 was holstered with the cover rotated over it. These actions were witnessed by Person 3 (P3). Along with Person 2 (P2), P1 and P3 proceeded to Gate 1 for guard duty. For nearly five hours, P1 and P2 rotated standing at the ID checkpoint until 10:00AM when P1’s M18 discharged while standing at the checkpoint.

On March 7, 2025, SIG Sauer released a statement affirming, “The P320 CANNOT, under any circumstances, discharge without a trigger pull – that is a fact. The allegations against the P320 are nothing more than individuals seeking to profit or avoid personal responsibility.”

Sound familiar?

quote:

Originally posted by Blackwater:
You an Sig employee? You’re coming across as an apologist, not a critical thinker.

Is that like me asking whether you're a Glock employee? (I'm hopefully neutral and not siding one way or the other any more than you're working overtime to raise concerns about one brand.) Guys, you didn't get the contract, move on!

But all jokes aside, safety is a serious matter, not something to be partisan about, so I know on this forum we can hear all different sides of the polygon without shouting down opposing views with ad hominem fallacies.

landowner, a couple of days ago, you were asking about the value of eye protection with the shooting sports, and all of a sudden, you want to wade into a complex issue about the P320.

These two things are at odds with each other. Experienced shooters in the modern world don't need to be educated on protective eyewear, and neophytes aren't qualified to take much of a position on the P320 issue.

What it seems like is that you purchased a P320 and you think it's a really great pistol, and therefore, with little to no prior knowledge of the P320 UC question, you feel qualified to take a strong position on it.

I welcomed you into this forum, offered to give exposure to your channel, and that being the case, I'd appreciate it if you would reciprocate by listening to what I've been telling you.

Two of the most important qualities members have in this forum are humility and authenticity. They know what they know, and they know when they don't know, and they behave accordingly.

Right now, you're talking to some guys who have delved deeply into the issue at hand, and I suggest you do some research and pay heed to what those here are saying to you.

quote:

Originally posted by Blackwater:
Vancouver Sig Armorer was able to replicate the UD without the use of a holster on several pistols.

Blackwater, that Vancouver report is a new one to me, thanks for sharing the video. Do you happen to know if those reports are hosted somewhere that I could look at them and read over them myself? Specifically the details of them replicating the UDs?

Thanks, Parabellum.

I'm conscious that I don't mean to dilute this important topic with a meta-conversation about a pecking order. I will endeavour to respond to your points concisely.

I reserve the right to respectfully challenge what anybody says, with a reasoned argument.

It is within your power on this website to moderate or silence me, and I respect that.

I hope I do listen, and take note, at least as much as I speak myself.

I doubt other members need somebody to defend them, their knowledge and expertise and command of logic shines through and speaks for them. So much so, that I doubt anybody needs to be reminded.

By the same token, I hope my own arguments will speak for themselves, especially where I am quoting material cited by somebody to whom I am responding.

If I have said something that is incorrect, I am open to being corrected. If not, then the opinions I've expressed and the info I've quoted stand uncorrected.

Please note that I would reject any attempt to characterize me as being on one side or another in this discussion. I am in no way partisan, I have no horse in this race.

quote:

Originally posted by Blackwater:

For nearly five hours, P1 and P2 rotated standing at the ID checkpoint until 10:00AM when P1’s M18 discharged while standing at the checkpoint.

I have an M18 made is 2023. I am going to try to lift the slide in the rear to try and make the striker slip off the sear. That is the only thing that can be happening at this point.

I just tested two 320's - an SXG, and a parts gun with a "gold" FCU - neither can slip the striker off the sear by lifting the rear while racking the slide. I can check more later.

Sound like out-of-spec FCU rail tabs or an out-of-spec slide. But the firing pin block is still doing it's job right?

quote:

Originally posted by 92fstech:

Blackwater, that Vancouver report is a new one to me, thanks for sharing the video. Do you happen to know if those reports are hosted somewhere that I could look at them and read over them myself? Specifically the details of them replicating the UDs?

I was not able to download the reports shown in the vid.

quote:

Originally posted by landowner:

Is that like me asking whether you're a Glock employee?

Have I been shilling for Glock in the thread?

quote:

Vancouver PD has documented several P320’s with dead triggers and strikers releasing and UDs from the gun being shaken.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yxD2dLPagDw

That is indeed a very interesting video. Hmmm, "dead triggers." Is it possible that the sear is not completely releasing on trigger pull due to tolerance stacking or excessive play- so-called "sear perch"? The trigger is all the way back, the safety lever disengaged, but no boom. At that point, all it would take is a little vibration, or the slide being lifted just a bit, to release the striker without further trigger input.

I have a question about sear perching as discussed by Grayguns. Are the .45/10mm takedown levers easily distinguishable from the 9mm/.40 levers at a glance? Obviously, they must be pretty damn close for them to even work between calibers. I don't own a 10mm/.45 P320 so I can't see for myself. Just to be clear, I don't really believe mixing takedown levers is a measurable issue. Just curious.

Also, are there any other platforms that can result in a similar issue related to a takedown lever?

Can you point me where Grayguns discusses sear perching? Would be very interested in those observations.

quote:

Originally posted by kkina:
Can you point me where Grayguns discusses sear perching? Would be very interested in those observations.

Take a look at the 1:00 mark.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AIhVlXJVj-w

quote:

Originally posted by Jupiter:
I have a question about sear perching as discussed by Grayguns. Are the .45/10mm takedown levers easily distinguishable from the 9mm/.40 levers at a glance? Obviously, they must be pretty damn close for them to even work between calibers. I don't own a 10mm/.45 P320 so I can't see for myself. Just to be clear, I don't really believe mixing takedown levers is a measurable issue. Just curious.

Also, are there any other platforms that can result in a similar issue related to a takedown lever?

It's not the takedown lever...it's the takedown safety lever, the long lever on the left side of the FCU that has a tab that encroaches into the magwell to prevent rotation of the takedown lever into the takedown position when a mag is installed in the magwell. It also depresses the sear when the takedown lever is rotated into the takedown position...which is why you don't have to pull the trigger to takedown a P320 like most other striker-fired semi-autos.

Most other platforms don't have a takedown safety lever, so no, they don't have that issue.

The 10mm/.45 and 9mm/.357/.40 levers are dimensionally different, but similar enough that it would be hard to tell without looking at them side by side, and even then hard to tell which is which. I don't have a 10mm/.45, either, so I've only seen photos online and haven't had a chance to personally compare them side by side.

I do find it somewhat ironic that the takedown safety lever has been identified as a potential issue, when its entire function is to prevent stupid people from NDing when disassembling their gun. And that's definitely a real thing, too...I know of two separate NDs by local cops trying to take apart their Glocks. It's not exactly uncommon. I'm not sure how you'd compile the data, but it would be interesting to do a study on how many NDs have happened from pulling the trigger to disassemble a gun compared to claims of unintended discharges with P320s.

quote:

Originally posted by 92fstech:

quote:

Originally posted by Jupiter:
I have a question about sear perching as discussed by Grayguns. Are the .45/10mm takedown levers easily distinguishable from the 9mm/.40 levers at a glance? Obviously, they must be pretty damn close for them to even work between calibers. I don't own a 10mm/.45 P320 so I can't see for myself. Just to be clear, I don't really believe mixing takedown levers is a measurable issue. Just curious.

Also, are there any other platforms that can result in a similar issue related to a takedown lever?

It's not the takedown lever...it's the takedown safety lever,

That's what I was referring to. Sorry I didn't make that clear from the start.

quote:

Originally posted by 92fstech:
Most other platforms don't have a takedown safety lever, so no, they don't have that issue.

That's actually the point I was making by asking the question.

quote:

Originally posted by Jupiter:

quote:

Originally posted by 92fstech:

quote:

Originally posted by Jupiter:
I have a question about sear perching as discussed by Grayguns. Are the .45/10mm takedown levers easily distinguishable from the 9mm/.40 levers at a glance? Obviously, they must be pretty damn close for them to even work between calibers. I don't own a 10mm/.45 P320 so I can't see for myself. Just to be clear, I don't really believe mixing takedown levers is a measurable issue. Just curious.

Also, are there any other platforms that can result in a similar issue related to a takedown lever?

It's not the takedown lever...it's the takedown safety lever,

That's what I was referring to. Sorry I didn't make that clear from the start.

quote:

Originally posted by 92fstech:
Most other platforms don't have a takedown safety lever, so no, they don't have that issue.

That's actually the point I was making by asking the question.

Gotcha. Then I don't know the answer. I'm not aware of any other design that has that function, but there may well be something out there. My knowledge is far from exhaustive.

Is there any reason to think that sear perch is not possible with a 9mm/.40/.357 P320 that is unmodified and has all correct factory parts?

quote:

Originally posted by kkina:
Is there any reason to think that sear perch is not possible with a 9mm/.40/.357 P320 that is unmodified and has all correct factory parts?

Robert Burke seems to think it's impossible.

quote:

Originally posted by 92fstech:

quote:

Originally posted by Jupiter:
I have a question about sear perching as discussed by Grayguns. Are the .45/10mm takedown levers easily distinguishable from the 9mm/.40 levers at a glance? Obviously, they must be pretty damn close for them to even work between calibers. I don't own a 10mm/.45 P320 so I can't see for myself. Just to be clear, I don't really believe mixing takedown levers is a measurable issue. Just curious.

Also, are there any other platforms that can result in a similar issue related to a takedown lever?

It's not the takedown lever...it's the takedown safety lever, the long lever on the left side of the FCU that has a tab that encroaches into the magwell to prevent rotation of the takedown lever into the takedown position when a mag is installed in the magwell. It also depresses the sear when the takedown lever is rotated into the takedown position...which is why you don't have to pull the trigger to takedown a P320 like most other striker-fired semi-autos.

Most other platforms don't have a takedown safety lever, so no, they don't have that issue.

The 10mm/.45 and 9mm/.357/.40 levers are dimensionally different, but similar enough that it would be hard to tell without looking at them side by side, and even then hard to tell which is which. I don't have a 10mm/.45, either, so I've only seen photos online and haven't had a chance to personally compare them side by side.

I do find it somewhat ironic that the takedown safety lever has been identified as a potential issue, when its entire function is to prevent stupid people from NDing when disassembling their gun. And that's definitely a real thing, too...I know of two separate NDs by local cops trying to take apart their Glocks. It's not exactly uncommon. I'm not sure how you'd compile the data, but it would be interesting to do a study on how many NDs have happened from pulling the trigger to disassemble a gun compared to claims of unintended discharges with P320s.

It was amateur gun hack and Youtuber "Hawaiian Shirt Guy" (calls himself "LFD Research") that started the whole ....storm about swapping safety levers and omitting the striker block.

Then he posts this

Sometimes the Internet is a wonderful thing and sometimes it's not.

quote:

Originally posted by kkina:
Is there any reason to think that sear perch is not possible with a 9mm/.40/.357 P320 that is unmodified and has all correct factory parts?

I recommend watching the Robert Burke video testimony of 5/30.
Mr. Burke addresses every theory and rumor concerning P320 safety.
Robert Burke is arguably the premier P320 gunsmith in the nation.
Many would not believe the number of P320's he has handled including Max Michel's P320's.