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| The Ice Cream Man |
Out of curiosity, how is the dispensationalism vs covenant vs whatever else, actually relevant to your faith? We are called to witness to Jews - Acts shows us that - and the pure misery/paganism so prevalent among them shows them to be just as lost as any other non-believer. Maybe some are “less” lost than some, but they’re still lost. | |||
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W07VH5 |
Shouldn’t we address the paganism in Christianity before trying to fix it elsewhere? | |||
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| The Ice Cream Man |
? Are you referring to the Apostolic churches venerating saints icons? I know it looks weird, and it may cross the line in the ignorant/mentally confused, but most saints did live lives worthy of respect. Almost all of the early Christians, were Jews. Christ made it very clear, that at first, He was here for the Jews. We are to work on our own sanctification. We are to work on our church, as part of our church family - but we are called to be a lamp to the world and the salt of the earth and to go out and witness as/when as we are called to do so. Paralysis by analysis/perfection being the enemy of good, is a thing in faith too. Christ is Perfect. God is Perfect. The Holy Spirit is Perfect. The Scripture is the Word, and is Perfect. All else is fallible. We have to work with the tools we have, not the ones we want. | |||
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His Royal Hiney |
I'm with Aglifter. No where in the New Testament are Christians called to "fix" Christianity. If it's happening in your local church then, yes, fix your own local church - the one you personally and locally attend and are a part of. Revelation shows us seven churches. People have taken these churches historically at the time of the writing and a picture of different churches through the ages, and what will be in the end times. Two of the seven, Smyrna and Philadelphia, received no rebuke. The five had things that Jesus had against them and of the five, the church of Laodecia is about to be spat out. What Jesus did command His disciples is to make disciples of all nations (Matthew 28). It was the command given to the disciples. And He said specifically that as part of making someone a disciple is to teach them to obey everything Jesus commanded - that would include making disciples. That's how Christianity has been passed down. People become disciples and they, in turn, make disciples. I would challenge you to cite from the Bible where Christians are supposed to fix Christianity, not sin in their own church, but Christianity as you put it. "It did not really matter what we expected from life, but rather what life expected from us. We needed to stop asking about the meaning of life, and instead to think of ourselves as those who were being questioned by life – daily and hourly. Our answer must consist not in talk and meditation, but in right action and in right conduct. Life ultimately means taking the responsibility to find the right answer to its problems and to fulfill the tasks which it constantly sets for each individual." Viktor Frankl, Man's Search for Meaning, 1946. | |||
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| W07VH5 |
When Jesus said “make disciples of all nations” what did He mean? Disciples of what? How did they understand that statement? | |||
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| The Ice Cream Man |
This is part of a multi year program at our church. Essentially, we accept Christ, we become justified, this is salvation by Grace, and something beyond any human capacity. As we mold our natures closer to that of Christ, we pursue sanctification. This is an ongoing process, the rest of our lives. Through that process, we bear witness to those around us, in word and deed, and encourage them to also pursue Christ. It’s really quite simple. Christ wasn’t joking about “My yoke is easy.” It really is very simple. It’s just “stop hurting yourself.” It’s just hard for the sons of Adam to see that, 99% of the time. | |||
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| Honky Lips |
I'm a confessional reformed. Test what you'd like. ___________________________ The point is, who will stop me? | |||
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| W07VH5 |
Does your church have any of the following: Crucifix Cross Venerable paintings Statues Xmas trees Steeple Baal staff Does your church celebrate any of the following: Spring rites May Day Valentine’s Day Love month Mardi Gras Lent Ash Wednesday Palm Sunday Good Friday Easter Saints day Halloween ChristmasThis message has been edited. Last edited by: mark123, | |||
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| His Royal Hiney |
I'll take your question at face value and assume you're asking sincerely and not simply trying to use the Socratic method. I'll also use your belief - "it matters what scripture says" - as the basis for how I answer your question. I'll also assume you are able to go beyond a cursory reading of the Bible as you said so. You ask, "When Jesus said, 'make disciples of all nations,' what did He mean? I also believe that what scripture says is what matters especially in the passages where it appears to be plan speaking. We can take the message at face value. .
I believe this is one of those places where the Bible is speaking clearly for itself. The grammar is there and I've bolded and highlighted the part that indicates what Jesus meant when He said to make disciples of all nations. Here are some of what Jesus commanded them and taught them about being a disciple: Matthew 4:19 "Follow Me, and I will make you fishers of people.” John 8:31 "To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, 'If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples.'" John 13:35 "By this all people will know that you are My disciples: if you have love for one another.” John 15:8 "My Father is glorified by this, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be My disciples." And that's what the disciples did; the disciples went and made disciples of people who weren't disciples. Acts 14:20-22 "But while the disciples stood around him (Paul), he got up and entered the city. The next day he left with Barnabas for Derbe. And after they had preached the gospel to that city and had made a good number of disciples, they returned to Lystra, to Iconium, and to Antioch, strengthening the souls of the disciples, encouraging them to continue in the faith" Do those passages give you an understanding of what Jesus meant when He said, "Go and make disciples of all the nations?" Or are you skeptical that those passages don't mean what they plainly say what it means for a disciple to make another disciple? That is: believe Jesus, follow Jesus, follow what He taught, love one another, bear fruit, and make disciples by sharing the gospel and building them up in the faith so that they can go make disciples also. It's a multiplication exponential effort. That's how you make disciples of all the nations and what Jesus meant. And, don't worry. He started the work and he'll finish the work also. Our part is in the middle. "It did not really matter what we expected from life, but rather what life expected from us. We needed to stop asking about the meaning of life, and instead to think of ourselves as those who were being questioned by life – daily and hourly. Our answer must consist not in talk and meditation, but in right action and in right conduct. Life ultimately means taking the responsibility to find the right answer to its problems and to fulfill the tasks which it constantly sets for each individual." Viktor Frankl, Man's Search for Meaning, 1946. | |||
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| The Ice Cream Man |
There are churches which don’t observe Easter? I get that the name in English/German has an awkward origin, but why would a Christian reject Holy Week? Likewise, never heard of a church without a cross - other than the cult of Osteen. | |||
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Official Space Nerd |
It depends on what one means by 'don't observe Easter.' The original "Easter" is clearly a pagan celebration. Rabbits represent some fertility god/goddess, and I can see why some Christians/churches would avoid this connection. One can have Easter without bunnies and Easter baskets, of course. As a Christian, Easter is when we celebrate Christ's resurrection. We don't 'do' bunnies and eggs, though we did when I was a child. To me, it's not a big deal (I love rabbits and I like chocolate), but I can see why others would object. Likewise, Christmas is when we celebrate the birth of Christ. My church has Christmas trees and lights, knowing that Christmas also has pagan roots (solstice celebrations). I don't really know or care what the pagans did, but Christmas is 'ours' now, and I won't let what people in the past did. Somewhere along the way, Christians adopted December 25 as the date to celebrate Christ's birth. I mean, this one is a stretch, to be honest, since Christ was almost certainly born in the late spring/early summer, NOT in December. Both these holidays mean different things to different people. Non-Christians will have their Easter baskets and Santa Claus, and I and my kind will celebrate the Holy and sacred aspects these holidays represent. Just because something has been tainted by paganism doesn't mean we have to expel everything about it. Of course, others feel different, and that's fine. Fear God and Dread Nought Admiral of the Fleet Sir Jacky Fisher | |||
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| W07VH5 |
You may assume that I’m using the Socratic method. I’ve never heard that term before but that’s what I’m doing. I’m asking what discipleship means. There was no New Testament scripture at the time. So what was the basis for the discipline? You’re right to say follow what He taught. What did Jesus teach from as was His custom? Where did he do his teaching? Where did the disciples do their teaching? This is what I’m getting at. What was “all that I commanded you”. | |||
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| W07VH5 |
Because it’s syncretism. It’s the reason Israel went into exile. Illicit mixture of the commandments with surrounding religion. It’s disloyalty. It is true that iconography is widely accepted. I find that as a huge problem. There’s a case to be made for imageless worship through the entire Bible. I just want you to think about what I’m saying. | |||
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Member |
I agree with you about icons and images that are used by Roman Catholic and Orthodox denominations and maybe you are talking about the worship practices involving a crucifix with those denominations. Or are you saying that a cross in a non-denominational, Baptist, Pentecostal, or Reformed church is being used in the same way? The cross in most if not all non-Catholic/Orthodox churches isn't iconography or an image, the cross has simply been a symbol of Christianity since the early church. The cross on the outside of my church serves the same purpose as writing "Christian Church" but in a much more easily and universally recognized way. You said to think about what you are saying so could you please elaborate a little more? Should we remove all crosses and symbols of crosses from our society? From homes, churches, hospitals, and universities? | |||
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| Lawyers, Guns and Money  |
I have no idea what you are saying. i·co·nog·ra·phy /ˌīkəˈnäɡrəfē/ noun: iconography; plural noun: iconographies 1. the visual images and symbols used in a work of art or the study or interpretation of these. "the conventional iconography of Christian art" the visual images, symbols, or modes of representation collectively associated with a person, cult, or movement. "the iconography of pop culture" 2. a collection of illustrations or portraits. I will say this: This thread started out as a celebration of Christianity of sorts and seems to be devolving into petty squabbling over relatively minor differences.
"Some things are apparent. Where government moves in, community retreats, civil society disintegrates and our ability to control our own destiny atrophies. The result is: families under siege; war in the streets; unapologetic expropriation of property; the precipitous decline of the rule of law; the rapid rise of corruption; the loss of civility and the triumph of deceit. The result is a debased, debauched culture which finds moral depravity entertaining and virtue contemptible." -- Justice Janice Rogers Brown "The United States government is the largest criminal enterprise on earth." -rduckwor | |||
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| Lawyers, Guns and Money |
From today's readings at mass: Reading 2, Romans 10:8-13 What does it say, then? The word is very near to you; it is in your mouth and in your heart, that is, the word of faith, the faith which we preach, that if you declare with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and if you believe with your heart that God raised him from the dead, then you will be saved. It is by believing with the heart that you are justified, and by making the declaration with your lips that you are saved. When scripture says: No one who relies on this will be brought to disgrace, it makes no distinction between Jew and Greek: the same Lord is the Lord of all, and his generosity is offered to all who appeal to him, for all who call on the name of the Lord will be saved. "Some things are apparent. Where government moves in, community retreats, civil society disintegrates and our ability to control our own destiny atrophies. The result is: families under siege; war in the streets; unapologetic expropriation of property; the precipitous decline of the rule of law; the rapid rise of corruption; the loss of civility and the triumph of deceit. The result is a debased, debauched culture which finds moral depravity entertaining and virtue contemptible." -- Justice Janice Rogers Brown "The United States government is the largest criminal enterprise on earth." -rduckwor | |||
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| The Ice Cream Man |
@Mark123, would you distinguish between the cross and the Star of David? LCMS has a weird mix - some people genuflect to the cross - which I can see as being perceived as a bit weird - others don’t. As for the use of imagery, some people process that way. Some people are more reachable by music, others by word, others by image. Many Gothic structures have a rather horrible origin, and yet, I think they were created by men, out of faith, and I think that comes through. Now, maybe it is part because I found a lot of peace in the LCMS, but I have a fondness for the Lutheran Rose, and its links to the liberation of man, but I don’t think there’s any sense of worship. The Amish are radically against imagery, but they carve scriptures into many of their buildings. I plan to decorate some of my house and work with some as well - but it’s not worship, it’s a reminder. I suppose originally, Easter observation was mixed with Passover - and it’s called Passover in most languages, TMK, but it’s a celebration of THE event in Christianity. And, I’m way out of my depth here, but I think it is THE Passover. The blood of The Lamb has washed all of us, and the Angel of Death passes over all of us, forever. I’m not too sure when the Rites of Spring started getting mixed into celebrating the Resurrection. I get that part being odd, and Christmas is very odd, but there is something or other I forgot about cleansing culture traditions of their demonic nature and using them for His Glory. EG, when witnessing to a culture where men and women don’t mix, in public, let them sit on separate sides of the church/take their shoes off, etc. | |||
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| Honky Lips |
I'm going to allow you to take another shot at that. Be informed that you don't understand what you're asking, and even though I told you, you also don't understand who your asking it of. ___________________________ The point is, who will stop me? | |||
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| Get my pies outta the oven!  |
About all this gatekeeping and people arguing about who is the "proper" and "correct" Christian here...GOOD LORD! Literally. He's gotta be doing this looking at all of us:  | |||
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| Member |
Hahahaha. The ol' Jesus facepalm. For what it's worth, I haven't perceived an argumentative attitude, or any "gatekeeping". Though I do understand what PASig is getting at. | |||
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SIGforum.com Main Page The Lounge Sigforum Christians, have you been "saved"? (And ongoing Christian faith-based discussion)
Main Page The Lounge Sigforum Christians, have you been "saved"? (And ongoing Christian faith-based discussion)© SIGforum 2025